Guns on ambulances

[DrParasite]

this thread is NOT about whether EMTs/Medics should be carrying guns. the question is, when you transport a patient with a police escort (ie, an offcier is in the back of the rig with you and the patient is under arrest and/or in handcuffs), what do you do with the officer's sidearm?

I'm of the belief that no loaded guns go with me in my ambulance. i don't care if my patient is the devil himself, i also tell the officer to either hand his gun to his partner, or remove the clip from his gun and hand it to his partner. his partner (or a second officer) will then follow right behind the rig during the transport to the hospital. in 4 years, I've had 1 officer refuse to do it.

my thinking: what's he going to do, shoot the patient (who is handcuffed) point blank in the back of the ambulance? i feel there is a greater chance of the patient getting free and shooting one (or all) of my crew after he gets the officer's gun. and if he does get violent, and dangerout, i can always hit our patient with something for my own safety (radio, clipboard, CPR board, 02 cylinder, proby, etc). and if that happens, i can get the other officer (who is following behind us) to hop in and assist the unarmed officer with subduing the patient.

oh, and i'm not a big fan of lock boxes, only because giving the clip or the sidearm to the officer who is following us to the hospital does the same thing

my safety always comes first.

anyone else have an opinion or have policies similar or contrarty to these?

[fre156]

Actually I've never had that happen (a police officer riding in the back of the unit) but I don't think him having his weapon would bother me. If the patient is handcuffed and the cop is watching him, if and when the patient broke free of his handcuffs, the cop would have plenty of time to pull his firearm if need be.

I do agree with you though....my safety and the safety of my partners is always paramount.

And for the record, even though I've a Conservative Republican, I don't think civilians should own or carry a firearm, but that's a whole other can of worms (which I'm sure you don't want to open up). ;)

[twocuts]

I have no problem with having an officer with a side arm in the back of my ambulance. Have you ever had a really bad PCP patient? I don't care what you do, that patient can whoop your A@#. The side arm may just slow him down enough to let you get out and run.

[NFD159]

I've had cops ride with me to the hospital several times. I always let them keep their weapon, and see no reason not to. If the handcuffed pt some how manages to get free, the police have enough weapons retention training to prevent someone from grabbing their weapon. Also most now carry level 2 or 3 holsters that make it very hard for someone to get their weapon out the holster. If I had a violent pt that got loose and was out of control, just have the driver stop the rig and get the hell out, then let the PD regain control of the situation.

[RoryEl]

You might also get struck by lightning, but...
There's a lot more things that you should worry about and your out of line demanding the cop disarm. Are you sure your not a jailer and just showed up to work at the wrong place? What about your armed patients? A lot of people around here are armed, concealed gun license, knife and gun club, etc.!

[Halligan84]

I'm thinkin a cop is a cop and has a statutory duty to carry a weapon. If a police officer can not be trusted with a weapon, why even have him for security? I don't see where you have a right to ask this, I'm suprised only one declined, unless you only asked one.

[ABMedic]

Hey maybe I am bias, since my brother is a Police Officer (former paramedic) but in 20 years of practice I have only requested or personally disarmed injured police officers for ground transports.

I believe that they like us are professionals, and in cases of transporting suspects or violent patients the issue is scene control and patient management. If one has the patient appropriately restrained and searched prior to transport - there is no reason to request the accompaning officer to disarm. I believe that this is a common sense approach (similar to screening prior to accessing domestic airlines) to dealing with suspects, and that a search is manditory to providing security to not only EMS crews and law enforcement, but also hospital staff and other patients within the ER. Failure to apply common sense rules in scene management, speaks volumes regarding your professional practice.

The situation is somewhat different in rotary transport, whereas the officer as a matter of routine disarms, with the weapon safed with the pilots for the duration of the medivac. The rationale is that it's somewhat hard to pull to the curb in rotary missions.


ABMedic

[DrParasite]

What about your armed patients? A lot of people around here are armed, concealed gun license, knife and gun club, etc.!

armed patients? if any of my patients are armed, i would hope that the officer would be nice enough to disarm them before I was called in to treat them. that's one of those scene safety issues. if the scene isn't safe, then i don't go into it.

If a police officer can not be trusted with a weapon, why even have him for security?

a gun is not required to ensure security. DOC doesn't carry guns. hospital security (not PD, security) don't always carry guns. mall security don't carry guns, and neither do concert or event security. i'm not saying i'm not saying a cop cannot be trusted to hold onto his weapon. but stuff can happen that isn't his fault. ever had a person who was knocked out in the back of the rig? 02 bottle vs human skull = LOC. it was an accident, and a freak thing. fortunately (sorta) it was a medic that was knocked out an not a cop. but stuff can happen

if and when the patient broke free of his handcuffs, the cop would have plenty of time to pull his firearm if need be.

and then what? i'm not a cop, but if i were, i think I would, and my supervisor would, have issues shooting an unarmed person in the back of an ambulance at point blank range. but i'm not a cop, so a police officer might think differently than I.


oh, and btw, i've heard some scary stories about EMS personnel being shot in the back of ambulances by patients who had got a hold of a cop's gun. i havn't been able to confirm them, but it's one situation i'd rather avoid

[Ltmdepas3280]

I have been on many scenes and transported many PT's with a cop in the rig and I would never think to ask him to un-arm himself. The PO has a job to do and a gun is part of that job, his side-arm is there for yours and my protection and he his trained in the use of that weapon. That officer is also trained in the fine art of defending the weapon from a struggle,but if the Pt is cuffed whats the problem? A weapon that is holstered should never be a problem to the medic or the PT. Just remember... when you think you dont need something....you need it!!!

[Ohiovolffemtp]

I have no problem with an armed officer riding in the back of the ambulance. It's a fundamentally different situation than in a jail. In a jail, there's a risk of multiple inmates overwhelming a single person. In the ambulance, there should be only 1 combative person and many EMS personnel and/or cops. Most officers are well trained in weapon retention and have level 2 or 3 holsters. There are a lot of other dangerous things in the back of an ambulance.

That said, there are several other things I would do:
[list=1]
I would give the patient a "complete secondary exam" - otherwise known as searching them myself. I've found that sometimes I'm more thorough than the cops, esp. in "intimate" areas.
The patient would be restrained to my satisfaction. If it's a combative patient, 4 point leathers secured to a backboard. If a criminal arrest, 2 sets of handcuffs - 1 each side securing pt/prisoner to cot.
Extra fire/EMS personnel in back. Engine co's are very useful.
In extreme cases, there's Haldol & Ativan.
[/list=1]
Given as much of this as needed is done, the cop can follow the squad to the hospital.

[lutan1]

Before asking a cop to disarm, remember why they're there in the first place- generally to provide protection!:rolleyes:



i'm not a cop, but if i were, i think I would, and my supervisor would, have issues shooting an unarmed person in the back of an ambulance at point blank range.

Is it really a problem for you? At the end of the day, the cop shot the person for a reason. Yes, you'll be a witness and involved in any investigation to the matter, but the cop has a job to do.

Do the cops ask you not to cary your drug box into a cell becasue the crims might want to steal them from you?:(

[Steamer]

posted by Ohiovolffemtp: In extreme cases, there's Haldol & Ativan. And fastpatches stuck over each ear. A defibrillator makes one hell of a stun gun.

Several points to address here. Where do I begin?

DOC doesn't carry guns I was a medic at a prison in Ohio for several years. The guard was always armed on EMS transports. Hell, they even handcuffed cardiac arrest patients to the cot.

mall security don't carry guns Not always true. I've seen several officers carry guns at large malls.

and neither do concert or event security Some of 'em I've seen, I wouldn't trust with a water pistol. Many get little training beyond how to say "get back", or "back up".

It boils down to the fact that a police officer is the expert on security and prisoner control issues. I'm not about to try to tell him how to do his job, anymore than I would want him to tell me how to do mine. Issues like this need to be addressed as a matter of agency policy long before a situation arises. Nor should it be a choice for either agency or any individuals of either agency. Once it's decided as policy, that's the way it is for everybody, everytime.

[DrParasite]

Originally posted by lutan1
Do the cops ask you not to cary your drug box into a cell becasue the crims might want to steal them from you?:(
actually, yeah, they did. well, not my drug box, but when i did a BLS transport out of the prison ward of a hospital, they told me to leave my 3 inch folding knife at the door. i was to pick it up when i left. then when i did an EMS run to the local lockup, i was told to keep my kit away from our patient, because it had a set of trauma shears on it.
I was a medic at a prison in Ohio for several years. The guard was always armed on EMS transports. Hell, they even handcuffed cardiac arrest patients to the cot.
well, it's not done that way in NJ. one officer transports with you, the other in a car following you. before the officer hops in the back of the ambulance, 99% of the time he will voluntarily give his sidearm or the clip to the officer in the car following the ambulance.
Not always true. I've seen several officers carry guns at large malls.
i have never seen mall security with guns. if they are off duty police officers, or police officers who are assigned to the mall, that's a different story. but not regular mall security.
At the end of the day, the cop shot the person for a reason.
ask some of your cop buddies what would happen if they shot and killed an unarmed person, who they knew was unarmed. just look at what happend in NYC.
Issues like this need to be addressed as a matter of agency policy long before a situation arises.
no argument there. unfortunately, EMS policy and PD policy differ in this area (i had a long discussion with the head of my organization about this).
I am not saying the officer is not well trained in the art of weapons retention. nor am I saying that the holsters will not keep the weapon. Am I the only person who has a fundamental problem with having a loaded firearm inside a confined space?

[ABMedic]

Everyone has a right to their opinion ... notwithstanding that fact ... I must say .... "GET REAL!!!" ... the back of the unit isn't a jail ... unless your a student ... then I might agree ... law enforcement are professionals that have an escalating force model upto and including deadly force ... it's not my job to say if they can carry their firearm in ground transports. If your making this request based on your personal belief and without a departmental policy ... then what can I say?

Sometime common sense isn't that common!

ABMedic

[N2DFire]

O.K. - I'm going to try REALLY hard to express my thoughts on the given subject without drifting into my own personal beliefs on gun related issues (although I firmly believe that the term "gun control" should only apply to one's ability to hit what one is aiming at! - oh well - I tried)


armed patients? if any of my patients are armed, i would hope that the officer would be nice enough to disarm them before I was called in to treat them. that's one of those scene safety issues. if the scene isn't safe, then i don't go into it.


You have PD respond to every single call you run and pat down your Pt. first? How do you know that the possibly intoxicated guy you picked up at home on a report of "chest pain" doesn't have a stick, knife, gun, bomb, etc. in his pocket? Did you ask? Did you check?

I have been in EMS for going on 14 years, I have transported my share of Hostile, Impaired (Drugs/Alcohol), and Mentally Ill Pt's. I have NEVER, not once had an officer ride in the back of my truck. I have had several offers from them to do so. I have had numerous ones who followed the truck to our destination. I have even had some radio ahead for other units to be waiting on us at the hospital "just in case".

My thoughts are if I have done my part correctly (searching & restraining the Pt.) then I don't need the PD. A good head to toe exam should reveal any weapons the Pt. may have on them and we should be doing this ALL the time anyway (even though I know we don't).

Often times the presence of Police Officers only serves to aggravate the situation anyway. Alternately if a Pt. is so combative and therefore so "dangerous" that they can't be transported in my truck w/o an officer then they are "well" enough to be transported in the officers car (in which case my crew will follow the officer to the hospital in case there are problems).

As I am a big advocate of the phrase "never say never", In the event that for whatever reason that I did have an officer accompany a Pt in my truck, under no circumstance would I ask him to give up his side arm.

Having also been a party to transporting an injured officer, there are no major issues with disarming them. If they are capable, they will do it themselves. Otherwise there will most likely be another officer near by who can do this for you.

In terms of disarming anyone (PD or not), it should always be done with the greatest of care, especially if firearms are involved (after all how many accidental beatings do you hear about - "I don't know what happened officer, the stick just went off!").

If you are working a scenario where PD is present & you discover a weapon, you should let them handle it. If you are working a "typical medical call" as in my example above and discover a weapon, you should only let the owner handle the weapon if you think they can do so safely (NOT as in my example above). Again, if a firearm is involved, you should use GREAT caution in removing the weapon. DO NOT attempt to "safe" the weapon by unloading it or manipulating it in any way unless you are EXTREMELY familiar with the weapon in question. Simply gently remove it & lay it in a safe area away from yourself & the Pt. NEVER - NEVER - NEVER put your hand anywhere near the trigger and ALWAYS - ALWAYS - ALWAYS make sure to keep the gun pointed away from everyone while you are handling it.

My apologies for the extended length of this post. I hope I was able to convey some good points and ideas without mixing in too much of my personal beliefs.

[IAMedic]

Taking an officer's sidearm, is similar to them taking our Defib and drugs. They wouldn't ask us and I wouldn't ask them. It shows a complete lack of trust & respect for that officer and can only hurt the working relationship with the department.

However, if you ask and they oblige then more power to you both. To each his own.

[Steamer]

posted by N2DFire: I have been in EMS for going on 14 years, I have transported my share of Hostile, Impaired (Drugs/Alcohol), and Mentally Ill Pt's. I have NEVER, not once had an officer ride in the back of my truck. Like you, I've done this a while (25 years as a medic; 31 years as an EMT) too. I've never had an officer ride with me either, but with one major exception. If the patient is a prisoner, and the holding agency's policies require an officer accompany a prisoner then he goes with us. That usually only occurs with prisoners held on felony charges around here though.

[DrParasite]

to you experienced guys who have never transported with an officer:
you have never transported someone who was under arrest? or someone the police placed in protective custody? that's when an officer is required (by their policy) to ride in with us.

You have PD respond to every single call you run and pat down your Pt. first? How do you know that the possibly intoxicated guy you picked up at home on a report of "chest pain" doesn't have a stick, knife, gun, bomb, etc. in his pocket?

yes. well, 98% of the calls, assuming it's not busy in town. in addition to esuring that the scene is safe, they act as our first responders. i also know many other suburban areas where this is commanplace

Alternately if a Pt. is so combative and therefore so "dangerous" that they can't be transported in my truck w/o an officer then they are "well" enough to be transported in the officers car (in which case my crew will follow the officer to the hospital in case there are problems).

if that is your policy, more power to you. I wish we could do the same. my PD will not transport any person to a hospital for medical reasons, due to the amount of liability it puts on them.

[wyobow]

I'll add my two cents in here and agree with most that I wouldn't ask an officer to give up his weapon. In fact, if I was the officer being asked to do so, I would refuse and tell you to deal with the patient on your own. However, if it is your policy (and/or theirs) and they agree to it, no harm - no foul.

That said, I agree with N2D -- the only good gun control is being able to hit your target, repeatedly if necessary.

[medic2k3]

I have transported several patients in the custody of the police and I have never felt the need to ask for the removal of thier firearm....If your police department has done any kind of training you would know that they are well versed in weapons and tactics. Unless your department employes "Barney Fife" from Maybury. Not that it would ever happen but lets say a prisoner were to "fake" an illness and transportation is ordered by prison policy. And lets say your department is too busy to send 2 officers(1 in the truck and another to chase) and again in this perfect world we live in I'm sure it would never happen, but along the way a strange vehicle cuts you off and stops the truck. A person or a group of people proceed to enter the back of the truck demanding the release of said prisoner. Now you and you crew are left with a police officer that can only mace maybe one perp. (not to mention cause every crew member to gasp for air). And what are you going to do, slash everyone with your 3" rescue knife, I doubt it. Unless you live in Podunk,USA with "Barney" as your protection let them remain armed.:cool:

[hageremtp]

and if you ask the PD to disarm, you best do the same. Unload your trauma shears, get rid of the bandage shears, remove the umbilical cord cutters, take the batteries out of the defib, store in a locked compartment all your IV caths and needles, fire can, and the O2 tank. I think about covers it............

[kghemtp]

If there's a reason we have an officer in the truck with us, I want every form of protection that comes with that officer right down to the shotgun in his front seat if that is necessary. Sure, he/she has more self defense techniques than many of us in fire/ems even without guns, but why put an officer and our crew in danger if this patient should do something we weren't anticipating? The officer is better trained with his issued piece than any of the "high society" we tend to transport, so I'm not concerned about his ability to protect us. Officer Barney doesn't tell us how to treat chest pain, and we don't tell him how to handle those in custody.


~Kevin
FF/Paramedic

[firedude8]

You have absolutly no right to request that the officer disarms before he is allowed in the back of your rig. I have done many calls where the officer has pt handcuffed and follows to hospital and have had calls where the wanted a officer to ride with us which was fine with me. I also do alot of prison transports always i am asked to leave my knife and shears at the gate that is for you saftey they dont even carry sidearms in the grounds when we leave we stop at the gate and i get my knife and shears back and the doc guard picks up his sidearm before hopping in my rig. also just in case you did not know if the pt is under arrest or if they are a prisoner that doc guard or the officer is there for you protection as well as your pt just incase like medic2k3 said a vehicle cuts you off and a bunch of people jump out to free your pt or to kill him. also i have seen it where they did handcuff a code and they are required to ride in back with us armed. Basically i guess im just reiterating what everyone else is saying. Point is you HAVE NO RIGHT TO TELL A COP WHAT HE CAN AND CANT DO. They dont tell you how to do your job dont tell them how to do theirs. And if your worried about being shot you need to go find yourself a job where there is absolutly no risk of bodilly injury. Because there is always a chance in the field you are in right now!!!!!!!

[firemedic57]

Being a Reserve Deputy and also work for a paid EMS service and volunteer for a fire dept, I feel that I have a general background on this subject. First of all, I would NEVER EVER give up my firearm. Cut and dry, if you want my gun, you gotta pry it from my cold dead hands. I have been on many calls that involved pts. who were combative/drugged/drunk or all three. I have had local police ride with me, and have never ever thought of asking them to remove their sidearm prior to entering my rig. Before I was certified to carry a weapon on duty at the Sheriff's Office, I underwent extenstive training. I fired over 7000 rounds, participated in subject control classes, and had the $#(% beat out of me in DT (defensive tacticts). I feel that I am able to protect my sidearm and control a subject in any circumstance. These are my opionions, but plain and simple, asking a officer of law to remove their weapon is like asking an EMT/Paramedic to leave thier defib in the rig cause "its dangerous".

[Resq14]

Who are you to tell a police officer what he can and cannot carry? You seem to have no idea about the implications of your demand.

First, to even compare a LEO with unarmed mall security demonstrates your inability to comprehend the scope of your foolish logic. Mall security is a feel-good presence and customer service necessity. Most companies don't even allow them to become physical with shoplifters!!! They're basically eyes and ears and a deterrent. They CALL THE POLICE when something bad happens!

Second, just because the officer has a firearm, it does not mean that it gets taken out when things get a little hairy with your patient. Officers are able to move up and down the Use of Force ladder to use an appropriate amount of force. If the person is under arrest, they should be restrained appropriately, and this will minimize most use of force issues that you seem to be concerned about. Do you understand what it would take for an officer to legally shoot an "unarmed person who they knew was unarmed"?

The "what if it gets grabbed by the patient and taken away" scenario is far fetched at best. Don't get me wrong, I'm fully aware that this can and does happen all too often. Once is too often. But to come up with some hokey rule based on what you think is best for everyone--including the officer--is ludicrous. I'd venture to say ALL officers these days are taught enhanced weapon retention skills, and many utilize retention holsters to further protect themselves, as was already discussed. If the patient is under arrest, most likely the patient is restrained appropriately. And if they are bad enough to warrant a ride in the ambulance, I'd hope that they are in rough enough shape to reduce their level of aggression.

I have no problem with PD transporting prisoners to hospitals if the prisoner is a danger to the care providers. If there is some policy in your area that prevents this, work to get it changed. Just because you are under arrest and in need of medical attention does not buy you a ride in the ambulance. Psych patients who aren't cooperative or who raise the hairs on the back of your neck, by all means ship them out in a cruiser. Most EMS personnel are not trained to restrain patients/prisoners. Talk about liability...

Remember that when in uniform, officers are targets. They are sworn to take action to enforce laws. You like drawing things out to extremes, so I will too. What if somewhere during the transport, you all encountered a situation in which deadly force was needed to protect a life, and the officer did not have his gun? For instance, if someone armed with a knife burst into the back of the ambulance while it was stopped at an intersection? Or let's say your patient "under arrest" was not restrained (but for some unknown reason you still had a police officer with you), had a hidden knife on his person, whipped it out, and started to stab you. You're telling me an officer couldn't be trusted with his firearm in such a scenario? I agree that within the tight confines of an ambo, it's far from being ideal.

You need to look at the big picture and consider the actual risks versus what you perceive to be risks. I have had an officer ride in the ambulance. If you respect them enough to bear witness to your actions and enforce your rights, you must also trust that they are capable of handling their equipment in any situation and at any time.

I would laugh at you if you asked me to remove my gun before stepping into "your" ambulance.

And they're magazines, not clips.

[Resq14]

Your posts throw me for a loop. I have to make some more comments.


Originally posted by DrParasite
the question is, when you transport a patient with a police escort (ie, an offcier is in the back of the rig with you and the patient is under arrest and/or in handcuffs), what do you do with the officer's sidearm?

my thinking: what's he going to do, shoot the patient (who is handcuffed) point blank in the back of the ambulance? i feel there is a greater chance of the patient getting free and shooting one (or all) of my crew after he gets the officer's gun. and if he does get violent, and dangerout, i can always hit our patient with something for my own safety (radio, clipboard, CPR board, 02 cylinder, proby, etc). and if that happens, i can get the other officer (who is following behind us) to hop in and assist the unarmed officer with subduing the patient.

First, if the patient is under arrest, they should be restrained by the officer appropriately. If, in some extreme case, the patient frees himself, this in and of itself does not constitute use of deadly force. Just because they slip out of a handcuff, it does not mean the officer is going to start injecting the patient with lead. You seem to imply this will be the outcome of someone slipping out of handcuffs... shots fired.

Now of course the situation CAN escalate. And officers can use intermediate levels of force to deal with escalating levels of aggression. Do you understand that once someone tries to take an officer's gun, and the officer can articulate an immediate life threat, the situation has entered a justifiable use of deadly force? The officer needn't wait for the person to get the gun in his hands before taking swift action. They are TRAINED to handle these situations. I guess I just wanted to reiterate that through training, officers learn to recognize justifiable use of lethal force situations.

"Event Security", "Mall Security", "Hospital Security", "Jail Intake"... if you can't understand the difference between these mostly unarmed positions (some are actual law enforcement positions), I guess I don't know what to say.

I strongly agree with the recommendation posted earlier. If the patient becomes a threat to you, stop the ambo and GET OUT or let him get out. Having a code word with your driver that means "slam on the brakes" is usually enough to catch someone off guard.

I still say that unless you need to perform some lifesaving intervention, a prisoner can be transported to the hospital by cruiser. From what you posted though, it doesn't seem like a common thing in your area. If you're concerned about the slipping out of cuffs though, and being disturbed enough to try to take a police officer's gun, you might look to start doing this. If anyone questions it, remind them that you are not trained to restrain people. I'd be FARRRRRR more worried about the liability issues contained therein.

[firedude8]

WAY TO GO RESQ14:)

[kghemtp]

Well, I'd say Resq14 wrapped this one up nicely! :cool:

[Weruj1]

I am with my brother NFD159 !

[lutan1]

There was this one time, I was in hadncuffs and I was being tickled with a....

Oh, never mind, that's a story for another forum...:rolleyes:

[smurfe]

I don't really have anything to add to this post that hasn't already been brought up. I just have to say that I totally agree with everyone else here and state I would never ever ask a cop to give up his piece. I like most do not have police ride with me unless it is required by their policy (prison transports)One thing I haven't noticed in any of the response posts (unless I missed it, some post are pretty detailed)is "What does your employer feel about "your" policy in regards to Police being disarmed or do they even know about it? I would recommend that if they do not know that you do this is to discuss it with your employers and if they agree with you, by all means keep up what you do. On one point, I agree with you in that the "box" is your office and you have the right to request what ever you wish in your environment. But on a personal level, I would never ever even think to ask cop to give up his weapon unless the officer is a patient in my truck and that is only because I do not want to be responsible for that weapon and if for some reason the cop didn't want to give up his gun I would allow him to keep it, but this has never happened as every police department I have ever been associated with, it is policy that an injured officer give up their weapon. Remember, the Marshal is your best friend.


Smurfe:D

[bucketboy]

After reading Dan the firefighter/ems posting about not allowing police officers to carry their guns in "his rig", I was so mad I blew a gasket. Who do you think you are? The holy than thou attitude you have is going to get you killed! How dare you ask a police officer to disarm before getting in the ambulance. Have you forgotten he is in there to assist you with your safety. Reverse the roles Dan, what would you do if you showed up at a scene and the police officer made you get rid of all your equipment and only allowed you to carry a band-aid? I trust you would be ****ed off and have difficulty doing your job (even you Super Dan would have trouble treating a patient with only a band-aid). When did you start teaching a course on how to subdue a violent prisoner with an O2 tank and a airway tube? Let the police officer do his job and you do yours. You do remember how to do your job don't you? You are a EMS person, NOT A COP! A police officers sidearm is his life. I do not believe you when you say the police comply with your idiotic request. I am quite familiar with the law enforcement community and I know the police in my community would NEVER give up their guns at the request of a fireman or paramedic! You are destroying a already fragile relationship between law enforcement and EMS and if you can see past your rose coloured glasses you would understand that your request to disarm is just plain dumb!!!I would not want to be anywhere near where you work, and I personally wont come to your funeral when you get killed for not allowing police to carry guns in "your rig".

Get a life!

[kghemtp]

We have a newbie to the Firehouse postings! Welcome aboard, and thanks for your input on a hot topic. Excellent point on something that hasn't been mentioned, the fragile relationship of police & fire/ems. We gain an inch and someone creates an issue that takes us back a mile. Great thoughts, people!

[CoolDre]

Wow, I'm embarrased to be a member of the EMS community after reading some of the replies in this thread. I'm not even going to get into the topic.... I see points to both sides. All I wanted to point out is that a lot of the comments arent necessary, and arent tactful at best, and some are blatently rude at worst. The posts asking who he thinks he is? ..... He's the lead EMT, he's the one in charge of the ambulance, everything that happens in it, and the safety of all onboard. I can see the point of having it "in case" the truck was stopped by people to free/harm the pt. yet I can also imagine the truck wrecking. Who would, most likely, be the least hurt? Not yourself or the LEO chilling on the bench. It's be the pt, nice and snugly secured on the backboard/cot. I'd have to agree to get a policy and go from there, either way has it's ups and downs.

Back to my origional point... please think about what you say, and which orfice it's going to come out of. We're susposed to be "professionals", act like it. :rolleyes:

Take care, stay safe.

[Resq14]

Not to whail on an equine already seizing on the ground, but...

Originally posted by CoolDre
The posts asking who he thinks he is? ..... He's the lead EMT, he's the one in charge of the ambulance, everything that happens in it, and the safety of all onboard.

If the police officer has the patient in custody, ultimately the police officer is responsible for his prisoner. Patient-care wise, yes, the EMT is responsible for medical treatment. Step back from the small world in the back of the ambulance and look at the bigger picture.

Again, this post is about extremes. So along with extremes, it is an extreme event for the officer to lose control of his firearm. Is the police officer trained to prevent such situations, and, God forbid, deal with such situations if they occur? Yes.

Likewise, it is an extreme event for a patient/prisoner to free himself from restraints and pull a knife on the EMT. Is the police officer trained to prevent such situations, and, God forbid, deal with such situations if they were to occur? Yes.

All I'm asking is for everyone to consider the implications of such a seemingly peaceful request. EMT's do not decide where, when, and how a police officer applies force in situations where force is needed, ESPECIALLY in life-safety circumstances.

[CollegeBuff]

If I've got a police officer in teh back of my bus, it's BECAUSE he's packing, and I'm not! (Among other reasons, obviously.) It just doesn't make sense to order someone who's there to protect YOU to sacrifice his final, ultimate means of doing so. I wouldn't blame an officer at all for answering a request to relinquish his weapon with the statement, "Then I'll meet you at the hospital- have fun!"

[DrParasite]

bucketboy, calm down. no one wants you to have a stroke. breath in and out. How dare you ask a police officer to disarm before getting in the ambulance. how dare I? it's my ambulance. As was mentioned earlier, I (as the lead EMT) am responsible for what happens. if the officer wants me to treat the patient and then he wants to transport in his patrol car, he can.A police officers sidearm is his life. I do not believe you when you say the police comply with your idiotic request. I don't care if you believe me. If you don't want to believe the truth, then that is ignorance on your part. as for your comment about his side arm being his life, let me ask you this: is a cop's side arm the only thing that he can use to protect me? in that case, I can get a monkey (a chimp), give him a gun, and he will do the exact same thing. I don't think that is true. i think if you take a cop's gun away, he still has his brain, his defense training, and many of his items he keeps on his duty belt. and these items cannot be used against me.
in addition, I don't only transport with one unarmed officer. maybe i was unclear on this item. his partner ALWAYS transports in the patrol car behind us. and I don't take possession of his gun; his partner does (the one that is always directly behind us).I would not want to be anywhere near where you work, and I personally wont come to your funeral when you get killed for not allowing police to carry guns in "your rig". That's ok, i don't plan on dying anytime soon. and if for reason I do pass on, you will not be invited, nor will you be welcome to show up at my funeral.

[engine23ccvfd]

I have been preety ****ed at post in this forum but this one is near the top for gasket blowing.

I was a cop for several years and on two seperate joyous days had my *** kicked protecting the crew from a mental/drug patient took a needle in the arm for my trouble during one of the episodes but you know what I never asked the paramedics to remove all needles from the truck before riding again. Maybe I am just dumb or something but I kinda figured it would be helpful to have medical supplies on hand in case the patient needed some help....As always a lead injection was a possibilty from me but I much preferred my ASP baton to keep the EMT's ....I mean patients at arms legnth.

[RoryEl]

Well DrParasite, you are a pesky little pest. I'd thought that the weight of the negative comments would have you reconsidering your position or at least somewhat humbled. I can see you don't like humble pie.

As one of those old hands, I've hauled my share of people in police custody. I'm not a jailer, so an officer rides when they want to keep the person in custody. I don't tell them how to do thier job, and they don't tell me how to do mine. We've never had a problem. Your responsible for pt medical care, not security so stick to your area of practice. The situation you describe is so remote, and you're defense so agressive that your credibility is stretched to the extreme. I'm wondering what the pay off is here? What's underlying this; fear, a bad past experience, litle man syndrome, gun control. what?

[lutan1]

i think if you take a cop's gun away, he still has his brain, his defense training, and many of his items he keeps on his duty belt. and these items cannot be used against me.

Wake up! Ever been in an area (Not in the back of enclosed space such as the back of the ambulance) when a cop uses pepper spray for example?

That s*&t affects everyone in the area- don't give me that rubiish that this stuff can't be used against you, even inadvertantly!:rolleyes:

[hageremtp]

yeah yeah, I wanna see how the taser doesnt effect you, or the pepper spray, or the buck knife, or the batton?

[eyeOthestorm]

some of us work in a county where we only have 1 officer on for the whole county!!! There is no partner to take the weapon!

I was a police officer for a short while. I had to learn a thing called the "force continuim" and how it can escalate and de-escalate. And how to deal with it using DT's (defensive tactics). Due to budget concerns if we wanted to carry an ASP we had to buy one. I hate pepper spray ever since I was nailed with the crap in a trauma room. (the officer hit the suspect, suspect runs out to ambulance bay, we all choked and gagged in trauma room, suspect eventually caught unaffected from the spray)I would not carry it as an officer.

I trust the officers here with my life. I would never ask them to disarm unless they were the pt. I would have never disarmed as an officer. OH AND BY THE WAY!!! Buddy if ya think giving a chimp a gun is the same a having an officer ride with you... man I hope that you local officers don't see this forum... cause U R screwed. That is very offensive and rude!

[DrParasite]

Originally posted by lutan1

Wake up! Ever been in an area (Not in the back of enclosed space such as the back of the ambulance) when a cop uses pepper spray for example?

That s*&t affects everyone in the area- don't give me that rubiish that this stuff can't be used against you, even inadvertantly!:rolleyes:

lutan, you are absolutely right. I agree with you 100%. pepper spray (among other items the officer has on his belt) can be used against me. but there is a difference: if you get pepper sprayed (or tasered or hit with a baton) your going to be in a world of hurt, as well as not be in good shape for probably a day or two. i you get shot, there is a decent chance that you can end up severly injured or DEAD. big difference.

eyeOthestorm, read the whole post, especially when i followed that comment with I don't think that is true. read it. I do not think that, all I was saying was just because the officer doesn't have a gun, doesn't mean he can no longer defend himself or others.
As always a lead injection was a possibilty from me but I much preferred my ASP baton to keep the EMT's ....I mean patients at arms legnth.
engine23ccvfd, you want to knock me senseless with your baton, by all means do so (i know, many of you will say i'm already there). odds are, you will only cause major bruising, and maybe a broken bone or two. if you give me a "lead injection", you might pop a lung, hit one of the "vital organs," maybe even my spine. or it might even kill me. that would be much worse than just bruises and a broken bone or two. both would do the job, but I'll take the beating over the bullet any day.
Well DrParasite, you are a pesky little pest. I'd thought that the weight of the negative comments would have you reconsidering your position or at least somewhat humbled. I can see you don't like humble pie.
actually, i prefer pain in the ***** to pesky little pest.
The situation you describe is so remote, and you're defense so agressive that your credibility is stretched to the extreme.
like how the michigan police officer accidently shot one of his nuts off? it might be a remote case, but it does happen.

and your right, my extreme defense is due to fear; fear of leaving for a shift one day, and never coming home, fear of walking into work one day, and being rolled out after my shift, or just fear of getting shot. yeah, it's fear.

[eyeOthestorm]

I do know why I even bother... but... An ASP is considered to be or can be a lethal weapon! Also if a suspect gets an officers ASP or pepper spray, the officer is justified to shoot.
Just consider yourself lucky to work in an area that you have more than one officer to protect you in these situations.

[mdpmtc1]

I worked for five years as a correctional officer in a maximum security penitentiary in Baltimore, Maryland. Our policy was, the escorting officer removed his sidearm and placed it in the custody of his partner, following in a seperate vehicle behind the ambulance. If something were to happen in the rear of the ambulance, it could stop and assistance could be rendered by the other officer. I believe this policy was in place due to the close quarters in the rear of the ambulance (which I am very familiar with, being a vol EMT). If the officer actually had to fight with the inmate in the rear of the ambulance, there is a much reduced chance of them obtaining a weapon that isn't there.

[RescueTrash]

I never even thought of asking an officer to give up his sidearm during a transport until I read this post.

If I am transporting a prisoner and he gets out of his restraints and is able to overpower the officer, I just whack him with a flashlight and it's over? He overcomes the officer and all of his training and has his baton. Does he smack me, give me a few bruises, maybe a broken arm, or do I get beat to a bloody pulp on the floor of the rig?

[Resq14]

When used properly, batons and other impact weapons are less-lethal control tools.

Yes, they can be used lethally. It is legal if lethal force is justified.

One point was raised about pepper spray and it being used against the officer. This in and of itself does not constitute use of deadly force. Those who have been sprayed understand that they have time to disable and/or restrain their aggressor.

I can see Department of Corrections personnel doing interfacility transports unarmed. But for a patient-prisoner who was just picked up on the street, who might be concealing an edged weapon that wasn't found on a cursory seach... the police officer should retain his weapon for the transport. The police officer is also more likely to become involved in an incident that might not pertain to the transport itself.

Parasite, it's great that you fear those things. But if you balanced your fear with some rational thought -- which is a stretch for you given the cheap shots you've taken at law enforcement in this thread -- you might come to understand why some people disagree with you. Fear of getting shot by a police officer... makes me wonder if you've done some time yourself...

I've got nothing else to say here. Maybe GeorgeWenndt will stop in, I'd be curious to hear how he feels.

[fre156]

The more I read this, the more I have a hard time believing that a police officer would just willingly give up his firearm. For one thing, I wouldn't have the balls to ask a cop to do that, and if I were so bold, I shudder to think what his reply to me would be. :o DrParasite, it really boggles my mind that you could get all but one to do that. I know a lot of cops and I can't think of one who would even consider it.

[IAMedic]

I can't believe this post is equaling the [.] post we had a few weeks ago. Never would I have imagined. lol :D

[smurfe]

I can't believe this post is equaling the [.] post we had a few weeks ago. Never would I have imagined.

Or how about the "Anyone have any Girlfriend Getting Tips" post
that one amazed me

Smurfe:D

[ABMedic]

I think the saying:


"I rather be judged by 12, then carried by six" comes into play for this thread.

ABMedic

[EVACSTEVEW]

I don't care who the patient or plice officer is. Guns do not belong on ambulances. What would happen if the patient and the police officer start to scuffle and the patient takes the officer's gun. Ever hear of scene safety. Either the officer leaves the gun with his partner, calls another officer to take the gun, or transports the patient in his car. No officer who knows anything will never even suggest it.

[tom2003]

I have also had a police officer in my ambulance multiple times, I think him having the firearm is not a problem.

Question, what is the cop refuses to hand his weapon over, are you going to transport without him?

[42VTExplorer]

Originally posted by EVACSTEVEW
I don't care who the patient or plice officer is. Guns do not belong on ambulances. What would happen if the patient and the police officer start to scuffle and the patient takes the officer's gun. Ever hear of scene safety. Either the officer leaves the gun with his partner, calls another officer to take the gun, or transports the patient in his car. No officer who knows anything will never even suggest it.

Its been said 3 or 4 times by people with experience before in this thread. Officers have things known as 'defense tactics'. Officers dont necessarily draw there firearm first. Stopping a patient in the back of the ambulance is easy as saying "Driver stop!". I was just involved in a small ambulance accident where the crew hit the breaks, and I went flying into the cabnet. Stopping the truck abruptly works.

In the one call that I have been on that we had an officer in the truck... the officer was not asked to disarm. I was not asked to put down my trauma shears, my pens, anything like that... and I am only a 15 year old Explorer (Of course we had a EMT:I in the back also). When a patient is properly subdued, and the officer is sitting on the bench seat, there is more then enough time to react if something is to happen. 'Well what happens IF' ...Exactly the thing... 'IF'. If something were to happen, the officer can choose the level of force necessary to restrain the patient. Lets let our fellow police officers use there weapons as they need fit... they let us defibrilate a code dont they? What if we accidently touch the stretcher and get shocked? That could kill you too.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

I am glad someone tipped me off to this post. Parasite, it seems as though you haver managed to galvanize the people on this forum. The way I count, it's 2 people who agree with you and about six million who don't. Way to go.

oh, and btw, i've heard some scary stories about EMS personnel being shot in the back of ambulances by patients who had got a hold of a cop's gun. i havn't been able to confirm them, but it's one situation i'd rather avoid

Name 'em. Cite the source, and provide dates and places. Actual reports. No anecdotal evidence w/o backup. If you can't "confirm them", you're lying.

BTW; I don't believe you either. Cops in NJ are trained to NOT give up their weapon. The one thing that is left out of your equation is that that officer is highly trained in the use of that weapon. Not only is he trained on how to use the weapon, he is also highly trained in the retention of that weapon. He is also most likely equipped with a holster that does not allow the weapon to be pulled out by anyone except if they are familiar with the holster. Not only that, but he has way more experience reading and interpreting "street" situations than you do. Not only that, but in NJ, I am required to fire hundreds of rounds per year so that I am an expert in my weapon. I attend two lectures per year, every year, on the proper use of force, including deadly force. If only you, as an EMT trained that much.

Despite the insiniuations in your postings, the overwhelming majority of police officers will retire NEVER having fired one round on duty, except for training. They would prefer to handle a situation w/o that weapon ever clearing leather. I will fight to the death to retain that weapon.

The fact that it is "your ambulance" has absolutely no bearing over what you can ask that officer to do. That officer probably has a SOP which tells him that he WILL carry that weapon every second of every hour he is on duty. It may be "your ambulance", but you're operating that ambulance on my streets in my city. I win.

Your posts show a genuine disrespect for LEO and an underlying anti-cop attitude. Likening them to mall security or event staff at an arena is a huge insult. Despite your obvious disdain for LEO, and an obvious inflation of your own importance, I pray that you never get yourself in a situation where you need the assistance of the people you so detest.

[DrParasite]

The way I count, it's 2 people who agree with you and about six million who dno't... I don't believe you either. I really don't care what you believe. If you want, you are more than welcome to ride a shift with me as an observer. and you can see who we work. maybe you should also go back to school, and learn how to count, because it's not 6 million people, i would say less than 100 that have voiced their responses. so don't make up statistics just to make yourself seem more important. and what part of "I havn't been able to confirm them" was unclear to you?
Your posts show a genuine disrespect for LEO and an underlying anti-cop attitude. Likening them to mall security or event staff at an arena is a huge insult. Despite your obvious disdain for LEO, and an obvious inflation of your own importance, I pray that you never get yourself in a situation where you need the assistance of the people you so detest.
Not at all. In fact, I do have respect for the job they do. I don't detest them. Please don't put words in my mouth. you do seem to be real good at that. Please stop. and yes, my life is more important. sorry you don't feel that way about yours.

oh george, when you ride an ambulance shift, do you keep your sidearm with you?

[Resq14]

DrP - how much EMT training do you have? And experience? Could you compare this to the experience and training of the people who have posted here? And could you enlighten me (us?) as to your training in firearms, use of force, defense tactics, and other topics of law enforcement you enjoy commenting on?

You opinions make me think that you should take your quote to heart. While I might've ruffled feathers in the past (probably with GW, for instance), I hope my opinions don't come off as yours do in written form.

There is a constant theme in your contributions here... if you write something long enough and with enough words, then maybe you will be respected. You've admitted this in writing. I've read them, I know. I'll take quality over quantity any day in these forums though. While you enjoy quoting people, you have failed to address issues raised to counter your points.

Update: I just went and read your 4 pages of other posts on FH.com... and surprisingly I found that I disagree with you in many ways.

I have no problem with differences of opinion, that's what makes these forums so great.
(edited for pc-ness)

[Resq14]

Originally posted by DrParasite
i'm not a cop, but if i were...

...:rolleyes:

FF/EMT Dan, you're opinions are pieces of work.

(edited for pc'ness)

[DrParasite]

4 years in EMS, as an EMT-Basic. and i've learned in these 4 years that just because someone has more experience than me doesn't make them automaticly right. and just because I post in the explorers forum, doesn't make me 16. Just one who like to discuss explorer stuff

my experience is 4 years. never said it wasn't. much of these "wrong" ideas were instilled in me by people with 20 and 25 years in EMS. I just happend to think that these people are correct. sorry i didn't specify it earlier.

I have addressed the counter points, you just don't want to consider what i say as valid. that's not my fault. I guess we all just have different priorities. and at least one person does agree with me. so maybe i'm not as wrong as you think.

[ABMedic]

After watching this thread and the rationale given for and against the topic, I guess we all live in a democracy. That means everyone has a right to their opinion ... even if it's wrong!


I couldn't disagree more with requesting a LEO to disarm and I don't. The minority argue passionately for their position, however fail to provide any rational argument that has changed my mind that armed LEO during EMS transport pose a significant risk of injury or death to either myself, partner, LEO or the patient. Yes the patient is last on this list for good reasons, even though I believe one of our most important central roles is patient advocacy.

Different people stand on different soapboxes for different reasons, and although I watch them standing with their placards (the world is ending) at the end of the day - they still have not convinced me of it's immediate demise. Within the state of this thread, no significant valid point or counterpoint has been made to change my clinical practice; furthermore, no evidence-based citations except for opinion has been rendered. The opinion mostly based on only 4 years of clinical practice does not equate to valid empirical evidence, when one considers the weight of the clinical practice of the majority.

ABMedic

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

oh george, when you ride an ambulance shift, do you keep your sidearm with you?
In my younger days, I worked p/t for two urban EMS providers for a total of about four years. So I don't need to ride a shift with you. Thanks for the offer.

In one system I did carry a weapon...concealed on my ankle. The other system expressly forbid their employees from carrying a firearm so I did not. I never had to use it. The only time it became a problem was going into the County Jail. I secured it in a PD car until we came back outside.

So my opinion is based on 4 years of p/t urban EMS, 7 years volly EMS and almost 20 years of law enforcement expereince.
and what part of "I havn't been able to confirm them" was unclear to you?
None of it. But I am not going to let you get away with posting something you made up, then trying to justify it by saying you were unable to confirm it.
I couldn't disagree more with requesting a LEO to disarm and I don't. The minority argue passionately for their position, however fail to provide any rational argument that has changed my mind that armed LEO during EMS transport pose a significant risk of injury or death to either myself, partner, LEO or the patient.
Exactly.

And 14, be careful how you address your posts. We don't want the w/t to shut this down.

[RoryEl]

Couldn't agree more with ABMedic!

[Weruj1]

GO GEORGE !!!!!!!!!!!!!

[DrParasite]

Originally posted by GeorgeWendtCFI

None of it. But I am not going to let you get away with posting something you made up, then trying to justify it by saying you were unable to confirm it.


your unfamiliar with me. so let me educate you:
1) I never say something that isn't true
2) I will never say something that isn't my absolute belief

the comment was made, with the disclamer that I havn't confirmed it. It was what my 25 year EMS verteran supervisor told me, and I took it at face value. and you make stuff up all the time. so don't try and lecture me. and please, stop the personal attacks. they are getting tiresome.

I stand by my initial post. I am the most important person on that ambulance. and my partner thinks that he is. then comes the officer. sorry, but my life, and my safety are still the most important.

[CaptainGonzo]

I just checked this thread out, and all I can say is "wow"...not!

I find a lot of irony of the "parasitical post".

I have been to EMS calls where we require the prescence of the PD before we enter due to the nature of the call (GSW, domestic violence, gang violence, etc.).

Why do we want the PD there? To protect our arses!
Is it any different in the ambulance?

Any EMT worth his/her salt can do a "secondary survey", assessing for both injury and/or concealed weapons, and if they are found, who do you want there to document it? That's right...a cop!

If I or any of my personnel have to ride in the back of the bone box along with a member of the PD, you can damn well be sure that I want him with his sidearm, especially if the call involved violence of any kind!

Just my 3 cents worth...Captain have to pay a little more!

[DrParasite]

Originally posted by CaptainGonzo
Why do we want the PD there? To protect our arses!
Is it any different in the ambulance?

Any EMT worth his/her salt can do a "secondary survey", assessing for both injury and/or concealed weapons, and if they are found, who do you want there to document it? That's right...a cop!

yes. maybe I'm the only one who thinks this way, but in a hostile scene, there are a lot of variables. and I will agree, on a scene that requires PD to be there, I want them armed. but that's a scene, whether it be in a parking lot, or in a house, or whatever the location of the call is.

the difference is that one is a scene. the other is a confined spaced. And I never said i didn't want to police officer there. All I said was that I wanted his sidearm to be with his partner who was following directly behind my ambulance.

[bucketboy]

Dr. Parasite: I have just read your latest forums and more specifically the one where you insulted every LEO. "You could give a chimp a gun and it would be the same". I was angered at your stance about guns in the ambulance but now you have suceeded in insulting me! A little background before I continue, I am a part-time firefighter and a FULL TIME POLICE OFFICER and I am also a Defensive Tactics/Use of Force Instructor. My wife is a Paramedic so I figure we cover the entire spectrum. So you get some legitimate heat for your stance on "Gun Control in Dan's Ambulance" and you start to name call and throw insults....very professional Dan, very professional. And just so you know I have more time sitting on the john than you have on the road. So stop talking out your @$$ and listen to the valid points that other qualified professionals are saying to you. You are so wrapped up in your own little power trip because its "your ambulance" you are forgetting that we all work as one great big team. Have you forgotten about 9/11 already? I hope the LEO in your community read your forum so they can see just how professional you really are. You stance on guns in the ambulance is not backed up by anything substantial it is only your personal opinion (which you are entitled to), but how dare you interfere with how someone else does their job. Have faith in your LEO's Dan....you may need them one day!

[Resq14]

Originally posted by GeorgeWendtCFI
In one system I did carry a weapon...concealed on my ankle.


Wow. Seriously, when I read that it made me question whether I could do EMS in an area where I felt it necessary to carry for my safety. I can only imagine what it must've been like... and then I'm sure it doesn't come close to reality.

And 14, be careful how you address your posts. We don't want the w/t to shut this down.

Point taken, I went back and hopefully toned it down a bit. We should remember to discuss thoughts, not people.... I'm guilty on that one. I still feel like his opinion on the matter is utterly ridiculous though. :(

Thanks for posting, CG. It's reassuring to me that the people whose thoughts I value around here agree.

[hageremtp]

Where to start:
Wow. Seriously, when I read that it made me question whether I could do EMS in an area where I felt it necessary to carry for my safety. I can only imagine what it must've been like... and then I'm sure it doesn't come close to reality.

Although I am not an officer, I once asked a LEO/Paramedic why he carried his sidearm while off duty from the PD and while on duty as a medic. Here is what he told me. In Law Enforcement you **** off alot of people. OFten times you can have a huge impact on a persons life, career, or future. These can be either positive or negative impacts. The negatice impacts are what scare me (him) the most. You never know when you will run into those people again. I (he) carry my side arm at all times (when practical...sometimes its required to disarm), on duty or off!

the difference is that one is a scene. the other is a confined spaced.

what about confined space rescues after a fight?:D

maybe I'm the only one who thinks this way, but in a hostile scene, there are a lot of variables.

Same for the back of an ambulance with a hostile pt.


Lastly I think ABMEDIC AND GEORGE had great posts. Thanks for the input (and support!):D :D

[MD32gun]

I just have to ask do you not have any confidence in your police department. Does your police officers shoot a lot of handcuffed pts. at point blank range with out using any other restraint. If so maybe I would understand. I have had to many police officers in the back of the rig and I have never asked them to remove there pistol, nor will I. The only time officers remove there weapon is when they are injured and then another officer secures it. Weapons are in the hands of the attacker it does not matter if it is a pistol or rifle. A vehicle can be a weapon as well as your clipboard. Backboard, O2 tank. I think you might need to become familiar with firearms and officers responsibilities. We have had gang members in shooting and our PD ride with us. The opposite gang was at the hospital waiting to make sure that he is dead. The officer protected us and the pt. If so be that he has to shoot someone or the pt. That is on him or her and I am sure it will be with do cause.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

the comment was made, with the disclamer that I havn't confirmed it. It was what my 25 year EMS verteran supervisor told me, and I took it at face value. and you make stuff up all the time. so don't try and lecture me. and please, stop the personal attacks. they are getting tiresome.

When a person uses unverified anecdotal evidence to back up an argument, it is not only unscientific, it is unprofessional.

oh, and btw, i've heard some scary stories about EMS personnel being shot in the back of ambulances by patients who had got a hold of a cop's gun. i havn't been able to confirm them, but it's one situation i'd rather avoid

You stood by this argument so stronly that you edited out of your post. Way to stand up for your convictions!

you make stuff up all the time

Yup, that's what people tell me here all the time :rolleyes: . I would ask anyone who might believe that I made anything that I have ever posted as a fact (as oppopsed to an opinion) up, to post it and I will promptly apologize. Remember, facts, not opinions.

[N2DFire]

Originally posted by DrParasite
much of these "wrong" ideas were instilled in me by people with 20 and 25 years in EMS. I just happend to think that these people are correct.

Originally posted by DrParasite
and at least one person does agree with me. so maybe i'm not as wrong as you think.

A somewhat well know saying (to which I could find no credited source) states that "If a million people do a dumb thing, it's still a dumb thing."


Food for thought.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

Originally posted by N2DFire




A somewhat well know saying (to which I could find no credited source) states that "If a million people do a dumb thing, it's still a dumb thing."


Food for thought.

Do you have a point?

[emtdtrs17]

When I first say this thread I thought it referred to emergency personel carring weapons while on duty. I was surprised to find that it dealt with diarming law enforcement officers prior to riding in an ambulance. Before I share my opinion I would like to give some background to rest them on. I am a new volunteer jr EMT with less then a year experience. I am the daughter of an FBI Agent and a IRS CI Agent. My view is that the public doesn't need and shouldn't have firearms for personal safety, that is why there are law enforcement agencies.

Now that you know where I am coming from I think that Dr. Parasite's request was understandable and well intentioned yet out of place. The safety of the ambulance's crew is the most most important concern. If a volunteer (paid would be different because they are being paid to be there) feels that they are in some way threatened by the presence of a loaded firearm even in the control of a highly trained and skilled officer they are justified in requesting that the firearm be removed or disarmed. After all they are putting their lives on the line for nothing. In the same respect an officer has every right to refuse. My personal view is that I am more at risk from the patient that is in police custody then from the police officer's firearm.

In the world of emergencies nothing is completely forseeable. A mvc involving the unit may cause the officer to be incapacitated and the patient to gain control of the firearm, but then it is also possible that enroute to the hospital a crazed armed lunatic may try to take over the ambulance and an armed police officer in the back would prove to be helpful. You can't plan on everything or anything.

I said that the disarming request was out fo place because the officer is the best judge of the risks he is taking bring a gun on an ambulance and now that emergency responders are allowed to carry guns on ambulances what is the point of disarming the most skilled and trained person?

[N2DFire]

Originally posted by GeorgeWendtCFI


Do you have a point?

Well I assumed that when taken in context with the 2 quotes placed before it that my point was fairly clear. Perhaps I also assumed that everyone would have already read the entire thread and that my first remarks would still be fresh in mind at this point as well.

George (et al. (http://buffy.lib.unimelb.edu.au/catalogues/libresearch/Abbreviations/Intro.html#etal)) - My point is no matter who instilled your ideas & beliefs into you, and no matter how many people agree with them - a dumb idea is STILL a dumb idea.

[EMSsquirrel]

I guess I'll jump in on this thread, while the jumping's still good.

I tend to agree with one key point made by some people: If the law enforcement officer is coming with me, I want him to be fully capable and fully equipped to do his job. If the patient's under arrest, then the officer has to come with us, 'cuz the patient is his/her responsibility. And if the patient is under arrest, then it's usually because the patient did something wrong. Hence why I want all the protection possible. If the patient did nothing wrong, but is, say, a victim, and the officer is riding to get a statement or somesuch before the patient dies... well, the patient won't usually be grabbing for the gun. But what if the aggressor returns to finish off the job? Of course, I also believe that EMS should have access to ballistic vests -- just in case.

-squirrel

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

Of course, I also believe that EMS should have access to ballistic vests -- just in case.

This is always a hot button issue in EMS. I always wore mine while riding. Yeah, it's hot and uncomfortable, but you may not have time to get it when you need it.

Example: Fourth floor walkup. Bad neighborhood. Dark hallway. No PD on scene yet. In the stairway, you encounter an armed subject. Too late to run back to the bus to get it.

Along with the vest, as with any other piece of safety equipment, comes training. The bosy armor should not give you a superman mentality. Bullets won't bounce off your chest. It may not stop some edged weapons and will not stop every type of ammo. But it will give you a fighting chance in most armed encounters.

[CollegeBuff]

My view is that the public doesn't need and shouldn't have firearms for personal safety, that is why there are law enforcement agencies.

Until those law enforcement agencies patrol my yard 24/7 (and maybe even if they do), I'll have to disagree.

[MD32gun]

I'll agree with you College Buff, I think someone needs to grow up and become a member of the real world and not T.V. land where everything is wonderful and everybody makes it to the next episode. Some rural areas might have to wait for a police officer up to an hour. For someone trying to break in and kill you. I definately would like to be defending myself. A licensed to carry firearm citizen.

[hageremtp]

Where my parents live, they waited over an hour and a half to get the first LEO from their county to their place. The next county over sent an LEO (no in his county) to help them, since our county takes so long to respond. They live on the county line so its a toss up...........so I say keep the gun, and buy a big ***** Dog!

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

Just so my position is clear...I fully support a citizen' right to legally own a firearm and to use it in self-defense.

[manofire2]

Our country has a fire-arms registry, so it is therefore impossible to commit a crime involving a firearm. (According to the liberals)

With regard to asking or telling a Police Officer not to carry his sidearm in an ambulance, I think you are seriously overstepping your authority. You do your job and let him do his.

[firedude8]

Originally posted by CollegeBuff


Until those law enforcement agencies patrol my yard 24/7 (and maybe even if they do), I'll have to disagree.


i agreee with you college 100% and everyone has a right to bear arms after all that is what the 2 amendment is all about and hager i agree even if you have a gun get a big dog too!!!

[RoryEl]

In Texas we have concealed handgun permits available to citizens without a criminal background. My wife packs a 9mm. I absolutely support the right to bear arms. Now, Parasite, how would you handle an armed and legally permitted patient? Demand that they give you their weapon? Remember they have the right to carry? Refuse to treat them? My crystal ball tells me a visit to your favorite malpractice attorney would be in your future

[Ltmdepas3280]

RoryEl; You bring up an interesting problem with this post, how do you handle someone who has the legal right to carry a firearms and who maybe injuried and might not have all his marbles but has done nothing to be placed under arrest. I can think of a couple of injuries that would alter the mental status a PT and create this type of problem. What is the protcol in this type of situation?

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

Originally posted by Ltmdepas3280
RoryEl; You bring up an interesting problem with this post, how do you handle someone who has the legal right to carry a firearms and who maybe injuried and might not have all his marbles but has done nothing to be placed under arrest. I can think of a couple of injuries that would alter the mental status a PT and create this type of problem. What is the protcol in this type of situation?

I think the prudent way to handle it would be the same way you would handle it if you had an injured LEO. Have the responding LEO secure the weapon until it can be legally and safely transfered to the owner. Note, I didn't say confiscate, I said secure.

[RoryEl]

I've yet to have this problem, yet have considered ways to handle it. One must understand that hospitals, among a limited number of other sites have been designated gun free areas in the enabling legislation. George is absolutely correct... "Have the responding LEO secure the weapon until it can be legally and safely transfered to the owner..." We, nor the ER have the facilites to secure it properly.

[hageremtp]

62.1-02-04. Possession of firearm or dangerous weapon in liquor establishment or gaming site prohibited - Penalty - Exceptions. Any person who enters or remains in that part of the establishment that is set aside for the retail sale in an establishment engaged in the retail sale of alcoholic beverages or used as a gaming site while in the possession of a firearm or dangerous weapon is guilty of a class A misdemeanor. This section does not apply to:
1. A law enforcement officer.
2. The proprietor.
3. The proprietor's employee.
4. A designee of the proprietor when the designee is displaying an unloaded firearm or dangerous weapon as a prize or sale item in a raffle or auction.


62.1-02-05. Possession of a firearm at a public gathering - Penalty Application.
1. A person who possesses a firearm at a public gathering is guilty of a class B misdemeanor. For the purpose of this section, "public gathering" includes athletic or sporting events, schools or school functions, churches or church functions, political rallies or functions, musical concerts, and individuals in publicly owned parks where hunting is not allowed by proclamation and publicly owned or operated buildings.
2. This section does not apply to law enforcement officers; members of the armed forces of the United States or national guard, organized reserves, state defense forces, or state guard organizations, when on duty; competitors participating in organized sport shooting events; gun and antique shows; participants using blank cartridge firearms at sporting or theatrical events; any firearms carried in a temporary residence or motor vehicle; students and instructors at hunter safety classes; or private security personnel while on duty. In addition, a municipal court judge licensed to practice law in this state, a district court judge, and a retired North Dakota law enforcement officer are exempt from the prohibition and penalty in subsection 1 if the individual is otherwise licensed to carry a firearm under section 62.1-04-03 and maintains the same level of firearms proficiency as is required by the peace officers standards and training board for law enforcement officers. A local law enforcement agency shall issue a certificate of compliance under this section to an individual who is proficient.
3. This section does not prevent any political subdivision from enacting an ordinance which is less restrictive than this section relating to the possession of firearms at a public gathering. Such an ordinance supersedes this section within the jurisdiction of the political subdivision.

62.1-03-01. Carrying handgun - Restrictions - Exceptions.
1. A handgun may be carried by a person not prohibited from possessing one by section 62.1-02-01 or any other state statute, in a manner not prohibited by section 62.1-02-10 if:
a. Between the hours of one hour before sunrise and one hour after sunset, the handgun is carried unloaded and either in plain view or secured.
b. Between the hours of one hour after sunset and one hour before sunrise, the handgun is carried unloaded and secured.

2. The restrictions provided in subdivisions a and b of subsection 1 do not apply to:
a. Any person possessing a valid North Dakota concealed weapons license or a valid license issued by another state authorizing the person to carry a dangerous weapon concealed if that state permits a holder of a valid North Dakota concealed weapons license to carry a dangerous weapon concealed in that state without obtaining a similar license from that state.
b. Any person on that person's land, or in that person's permanent or temporary residence, or fixed place of business.
c. Any person while lawfully engaged in target shooting.
d. Any person while in the field engaging in the lawful pursuit of hunting or trapping. However, nothing in this exception authorizes the carrying of a loaded handgun in a motor vehicle.
e. Any person permitted by law to possess a handgun while carrying the handgun unloaded and in a secure wrapper from the place of purchase to that person's home or place of business, or to a place of repair or back from those locations.
f. Any North Dakota law enforcement officer.
g. Any law enforcement officer of any other state or political subdivision thereof if on official duty within this state.
h. Any armed security guard or investigator as authorized by the attorney general when on duty or going to or from duty.
i. Any member of the armed forces of the United States when on duty or going to or from duty and when carrying the handgun issued to the member.
j. Any member of the national guard, organized reserves, state defense forces or state guard organizations, when on duty or going to or from duty and when carrying the handgun issued to the member by the organization.
k. Any officer or employee of the United States duly authorized to carry a handgun.
l. Any person engaged in manufacturing, repairing, or dealing in handguns or the agent or representative of such person possessing, using, or carrying a handgun in the usual or ordinary course of such business.
m. Any common carrier, but only when carrying the handgun as part of the cargo in the usual cargo carrying portion of the vehicle.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

I think hager's post points out that there are some states that you could find numerous people walking down the street legally carrying a firearm. Some states require it concealed, some states require it not concealed.

In NJ, one of the hardest permits to obtain is a carry permit. There are very few classes of people (private investigators, persons engaged in hazardous employment such as jewelry dealers) that can obtain a carry permit, most EMS people in NJ won't come across a civilian legally carrygin a weapon in their career. So you know if the person has a concealed weapon, there is a good bet that they are a police officer, retired police officer or a criminal.

During your primary, a quick once over for a weapon is not a bad practice.

[hageremtp]

George Hit the nail on the head, how many people can pack and you dont even know it. I carry a permit to 'pack heat'. I have never carried it to work, but do regularly carry it when off duty. I worked with an off duty police officer, who was an on duty medic. He always was packing. The company knew about it, I knew about it, and most of the local LEO's knew about it. He wore it in a holster under his duty shirt, which could still provide access if needed. Think of it this way, these/those (LEOS) folks go out everyday do arrest people, track people down, and write tickets to groups of law breaking citizens. Dont you think that after awhile these LEO's will be marked? You bet! Put away your first major drug trafficer and dont you think there is going to be a ring of them after him? Now place the same situation into the EMS world. Imagaine that drug trafficers buddy is shot in a gang fight, he!! yes I want the officer I take with me to be packing, not only for him, for my patient, and mostly for ME!

[hageremtp]

Wanna know how hard it is to pack a weapon? Here you go: (ND law)

62.1-04-03. License to carry a firearm or dangerous weapon concealed.
1. The chief of the bureau of criminal investigation shall issue a license to carry a firearm or dangerous weapon concealed upon review of an application submitted to the chief if the following criteria are met:
a. The applicant has a valid reason for carrying the firearm or dangerous weapon concealed, including self-protection, protection of others, or work-related needs.
b. The applicant is not a person specified in section 62.1-02-01.
c. The applicant has the written approval for the issuance of such a license from the sheriff of the applicant's county of residence, and, if the city has one, the chief of police or a designee of the city in which the applicant resides. The approval by the sheriff may not be given until the applicant has successfully completed a background investigation in that county and has attended a testing procedure conducted pursuant to rules adopted by the attorney general. The testing procedure for approval of a concealed weapons license must include an open book test to be given from a manual that sets forth weapon safety rules and the deadly force law of North Dakota, including judicial decisions and attorney general opinions, and a proficiency test consisting of a course of fire to be designated by the criminal justice training and statistics division of the attorney general's office. The purpose of the proficiency test is only to ensure a minimal level of competency in the loading and unloading of the firearm or dangerous weapon, use of safety devices and basic firearm or dangerous weapon functioning, and minimal accuracy. A weapons instructor certified by the attorney general shall conduct the testing procedure. The attorney general shall develop rules that ensure that this testing will be conducted periodically. The local agency conducting the testing may assess a charge of up to fifty dollars for conducting this testing. The testing procedure is not required for a renewal of a concealed weapons license.
d. The applicant satisfactorily completes the bureau of criminal investigation application form and has successfully passed a background investigation or criminal records check conducted by that agency.
e. The applicant is not prohibited under federal law from owning, possessing, or having a firearm under that person's control.


2. The sheriff is required to process the application within thirty days after the completion of the testing portion unless the application is for renewal of a license and in such case the application must be processed within thirty days after its receipt by the sheriff, the chief of police is required to process the application within ten working days of its receipt by the agency, and the bureau of criminal investigation is required to process the application and make a determination within thirty days of receipt from the forwarding agency.


3. The license fee for a concealed weapons license is twenty-five dollars. Ten dollars of this fee must be credited to the state general fund and fifteen dollars of this fee must be credited to the attorney general's operating fund up to a total of seventy-five thousand dollars each biennium. Any collections from fifteen dollars of this fee in excess of the seventy-five thousand dollars credited to the attorney general's operating fund each biennium must be credited to the state general fund. The license fee must be paid before the license is issued by the director of the bureau of criminal investigation.


4. The chief of the bureau of criminal investigation shall prescribe the form of the application and license, which must include the name, address, description, a photograph, and the signature of the individual. The application form must require sufficient information to properly conduct a background investigation and be accompanied by two sets of classifiable fingerprints. The two sets of classifiable fingerprints are not required for a renewal of a concealed weapons license. The license is valid for three years. The license must be prepared in triplicate, and the original must be delivered to the licensee, the duplicate must be sent by mail, within seven days after issuance, to the sheriff of the county in which the applicant resides, and the triplicate must be preserved for six years by the chief. In those cases in which the licensee resides in a city, an additional copy of the license must be made and sent by mail, within seven days after issuance, to the chief of police of the city in
which the applicant resides. The individual shall notify the chief of the bureau of criminal investigation of any change of address or any other material fact which would affect the restrictions on or the need for the license.


5. The chief of the bureau of criminal investigation may deny an application or revoke or cancel such a license after it has been granted for any material misstatement by an applicant in an application for the license or any violation of this title.


6. The applicant may appeal a denial or revocation of this license to the district court of the applicant's county of residence.


7. The attorney general may adopt rules to carry out this title.

[Mongoose772]

Dan, I'm going to have to be on the "it's silly to even think of asking a police officer to remove his weapon when in your ambulance" side of the discussion.

Over 15 years I've had dozens of cops (with guns) in the ambulance with me.
1. Some are Public Safety Officers who are ACTING as EMTs.
2. I have transported RECENTLY shot by cop patients, HANDCUFFED to ERs. Some concious, some unconcious.
3. I have transported (3 that I can think of) uniformed cops as patients (one back injury, 2 cruiser accidents) WITH GUNS.
4. Every time we transport a PRISONER from the County Jail, we ride with an armed deputy. In FACT the armed deputy STAYS with the prisoner throughout cuffed treatment at the hospital!
5. We routinely use ARMED City Police as protection for violent psychiatric or substance abuse transports.

To date I've never needed to ask them to shoot (again) any of my patients, but I suppose if the need arises....

Kind of silly really.

Dan-
FF/Paramedic
IAFF Local #772

[hageremtp]

Oh my.its back from the dead (or so I thought it was dead)!

[Mongoose772]

Oh it's dead.

I was just replying because I want to be more like you guys with 93,000 posts to your credit. ;)

Dan-

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

It WAS dead.

3. I have transported (3 that I can think of) uniformed cops as patients (one back injury, 2 cruiser accidents) WITH GUNS.

This is a bad idea from the cops perspective. His partner or his superior or one of the cops at the scene should secure his weapon before he leaves the scene. If he is critical, the weapon becomes a problem when he is stripped down and may actually become unsecured in the bus. If he's not critical, being strapped to the cot means he is probably not in a position to use it. He will also be stripped down in the ER (probably) and there is no good place to secure it there. In addition, if he was transported in a bus, the chances are that he is not going back to work. Better to be left secured with the cops at the scene.

[Mongoose772]

Yeah George...I can agree with that. Cops as patients should have their weapons removed for all the reasons you mentioned.

Plus if he's scared of IVs or something, you don't want him to escalate force when you pull out the "deadly" needle huh? :)
Just kidding. But I do agree on the other things.

Dan-

[Weruj1]

bump..................

[SgtScott31]

As a police Sgt/FF/EMT-IV, anyone that tells me to disarm to get into an ambulance will be finding themselves riding alone.

As Edgar said in Men in Black, "you can have my gun when you pry it from my cold, dead hands."

I think this is mute anyway. If the patient is such a threat that one has to worry about a firearm onboard, they should be transported in a caged vehicle (car or van).

[jtkmedic69]

Reading quickly on these forums, I fail to see one option. As a former police officer and SWAT medic, I carried a back up on me as well. I know some that carried two back ups. I personally, would not give up my weapon unless it was SOP. But then again, my weapon was in an autolock holster and was a real pain to try and take away from me.

[beastie35]

Not sure about anyone else. But if and when a police officer rides in my ambulance, he/she is sitting in the captains chair in the rear of the patient for 2 reasons:

1) so they dont get in our way of treating the patient
2) in case the patient thinks he/she can start to become a pain, they have to spin around in a moving ambulance in order to confront the police officer

I dont care if the officer has their sidearm or not, usually the officer that is riding in the back is carrying the new taser just in case, if they're not then the officer following us has one. We are also fortunate enough to have 2 hospitals in a town that has a lot of police officers that are close by.

[doughesson]

I agree with the officer being armed in the back.If there is a need for him to be there,I want him/her fully equipped and trained to do their job,just as they expect me to be fully equipped and trained to do mine(working on that)which is to get the suspect/patient to the hospital for treatment and later incarceration.
As to a legally armed patient,I'd advise them of the fact that firearms are not to be in the back and they need to make arrangements with the nice police officer or a trusted friend of the patient's for the firearm's security most rikky tik.
If I find anything hinky on a patient who is being escorted to a hospital prior to being arrested and there is a lawdoggie anywhere near the rig,the patient doesn't get to make arrangments,they will be made for them.
I got to ride in back of an ambulance last year after a robbery at my "real"job(I was a volunteer FF then)and I told them that I had several knives on me if they needed to know.When I started hauling all three out,the LT just said"Nah,you can hang on to them.I'm not worried about you sticking anyone"and nothing else was said on the subject.
I trust the police not to have an AD or put the sidearm where the patient could get at it.Of course,they could betray that trust and be replaced as soon as I could get the driver to pull over so I could toss him out.

I'm thinkin a cop is a cop and has a statutory duty to carry a weapon. If a police officer can not be trusted with a weapon, why even have him for security? I don't see where you have a right to ask this, I'm suprised only one declined, unless you only asked one.

[OCFirePM]

Hopefully the cop just kept one in the chamber while he handed his "clip" to his partner....

[JHR1985]

But didnt mother from Mother Jugs and Speed carry one? If he can....... why cant we?

In all reality, I could care less if they have one or not. If I have an inmate with me, he is handcuffed to the cot and if he does anything funny.... bad things shall happen

[firespec35]

Ok my 2 cents on an old topic. You have no right to demand the officer disarm, especially with a person in custody. That LEO has been trained in weapons retention and probably has a level 3 retention holster. Level 3 holsters are very common in law enforcement and provides 3 levels of security making it so it's almost impossible for anyone but the LEO to remove the weapon from the holster. The funny part was all of the LEO's that complied were silently laughing because they all carried back up guns and just wanted to get the ambulance ride over and not argue with you about it.

For those who don't know LEO= Law Enforcement Officer (a pet peeve of mine, I just feel its disrespectful to call them a cop)

[firespec35]

Ok now a civillian with a CCW is a different story. If I remember correctly a citizen with a CCW is not allowed to carry in a hospital (I'll brush up when I go get my CCW class) Also at this point only the legal owner of a pistol may carry it (MI is in the process of changing that) So even if your pt has a friend with a CCW he is screwed. We would have to call a LEO to secure it and the CCW holder can go get it upon discharge from the hospital.

[bossteen]

if your a pt, leo or not, you don't take a weapon, end of discussion....if your leo and are riding in, knock yourself out....

[SgtScott31]

It will depend on the circumstances, but if I had an (armed) injured patient, I would have a family member or LEO secure the weapon. It's one thing to have an on-duty officer riding with you armed. It's another to have an armed citizen on a cot.

I know citizens have the right to bear arms, but when you're talking about an ambulance, safety is the main concern. How do I know this isn't Mr. crackhead wanting to rob the ambulance of the drugs on-board?

I am a full-time police officer, but I also volunteered for 8 years and a licensed EMT-IV/FF.

If I have a patient that is armed, I may have law enforcement hold their weapon. Two reasons: uknown intent of the "patient" and patients that have certain illness/injury.

Just as airports, liquor stores, public venues prohibit weapons on property, so can you as medical transport. Besides, if the situation was serious enough, I wouldn't delay patient care to go searching through his/her personal effects just to see if they're "legally" armed or not.

My .02

[fireguy919]

Lot of good points made here. The ambo I work for is private and we have contracts to one the Federal Correctional Prison and a Ohio Prison. The federal prison is in our back yard so to say and transports are local hospitals. For them we get one guard that rides in back how is armed. The state prison we pick up at another hospital about 45 miles away from our home area and transport to Columbus. Another 123 miles give or take. With those trips we have one guard in back and one following in a chase van behind us. Of all the people to be worried about carrying a fire arm on board the rig I would want it to be a L.E.O.. We have never had an issue or can I honestly see where there would be one. The fire arms are properly secured and holstered. They do not move around to where the pt could get control of the side arm. And don’t know everyone else experiences with these kind of transports but last thing these pt want to do is get out. They are secured to the cot hands and legs chained not like they would get far.

We have had officers ride in back when they was taking someone in custody same deal with them. They are not moving around the pt where the pt could try and get control of it. Never have really had a reason to think it would be an issue or concern. Not saying by an means they have to carry just that we have never had an issue. worst part about being involved in these type of transports is getting in and out of the Federal Prison. Get a call for chest pains and you’ll have them before you get to the pt. pull up to the gate get id’s checked. Vehicle checked escorted in get to the enterance of the building through security again to the pt. then he has to go thought shake down and checked before we can load him. Call in to the warden or supervisor as to if the pt really needs to go. Load them into the ambo get to the front gate get the id and vehicle check again. It is how it has to be I guess. Just my two cents worth.

[brentoli]

Things in the back of an ambulance the can be used as a deadly weapon:


Needles
Tubing
O2 cyldnders
Shears
Scapels
Defib
EKG cord
Pushing me out a door
Curlex
Radios and cords
Straps
My knife on my belt



And thats just a short list. I know there is alot more.
That "unarmed" paitent can become armed VERY quickly.

[firenresq77]

I didn't read through the 6 pages, but here's what we do.........


If a LEO is riding witha pt, they keep their weapons.......

If the LEO is a pt or it is a pt with a CCW, the weapons will either be secured by another LEO on the scene or we will secure it in a gun safe that is installed in each one of our ambulances........ Our PD must then secure the weapon after that....... Usually it will be secured at our Police Station and the pt can pick it up later......

[firelt305]

my department is both a police and ems agency we carry weapons in the unit however if we transport a prisoner from the jail or something the weapons get locked up and only allow the tazor in the back of the unit.

[MarionMedic]

this thread is NOT about whether EMTs/Medics should be carrying guns. the question is, when you transport a patient with a police escort (ie, an offcier is in the back of the rig with you and the patient is under arrest and/or in handcuffs), what do you do with the officer's sidearm?

I'm of the belief that no loaded guns go with me in my ambulance. i don't care if my patient is the devil himself, i also tell the officer to either hand his gun to his partner, or remove the clip from his gun and hand it to his partner. his partner (or a second officer) will then follow right behind the rig during the transport to the hospital. in 4 years, I've had 1 officer refuse to do it.

my thinking: what's he going to do, shoot the patient (who is handcuffed) point blank in the back of the ambulance? i feel there is a greater chance of the patient getting free and shooting one (or all) of my crew after he gets the officer's gun. and if he does get violent, and dangerout, i can always hit our patient with something for my own safety (radio, clipboard, CPR board, 02 cylinder, proby, etc). and if that happens, i can get the other officer (who is following behind us) to hop in and assist the unarmed officer with subduing the patient.

oh, and i'm not a big fan of lock boxes, only because giving the clip or the sidearm to the officer who is following us to the hospital does the same thing

my safety always comes first.

anyone else have an opinion or have policies similar or contrarty to these?


I don't think so scooter.

This anti-gun fueled rhetoric might be commonplace in some areas of the country, but I think it's kinda "knee jerk" for the most part.

1) YOU don't decide whether a LEO is armed or not. He is a cop, and carrying that "gun" is his #1 purpose for "being".
You don't call 911, or for LEO backup, because you want blue lights, cruisers, or even personnel. You call for someone to bring a GUN to protect you.
The officer is just a man, it's the GUN that makes you safe.
Otherwise you just have another warm body.

2) Guns don't kill people, Doctors do.
Ok, I'm kidding. That's actual Statistics, but not what I'm saying.
PEOPLE do more damage than Guns, and CRIMINAL types do more harm than LEO's and law abiding gunowners by an ENCREDIBLE disproportion.

Now let me tell you how it is SUPPOSED to work.
An LEO or Gun Owner is responsible for their weapon. Them and ONLY them.
To leave it elsewhere is a "NoNo".

A while back, I was involved in a Search & Rescue operation where a lady wondered away from the nursing home and into a wooded area.
We ALWAYS carry firearms in "the bush", and this time I had a .45 Auto on my hip.
(you'd hafta know our local snake population personally to understand)

When found, the lady was in BAD shape.
She coded just prior to transport.

I rode along and assisted to the E.D., assisted IN the E.R., and then was given a ride back to my truck.
I was ARMED the WHOLE TIME.

My firearm made "diddly" difference to anyone or anything about the entire situation, and with the exception of some added weight on my side was a non-issue.

No, I'm not a LEO.

But I understand the place where you are coming from.
Folks that are unaccustomed to seeing firearms do tend to be afraid of them.
Just like folks who don't Jump or Dive are fearful of jumping out of an airplane or being 60 feet under water.

It's a psychological disorder that you just have to get over.
That piece of machinery is about 500 times less likely to kill you than your automobile.

I would suggest taking a firearms class to help you overcome your phobia.
It will also help you be a good "brother" to the cops you work around rather than alienating them. (which is NOT a good idea for folks who tend to expect "professional courtesy")

I know we all have our own ways, but if you were working with me I would advise you to just let it go and not make it an issue.

[DrParasite]

I don't think so scooter.Names DrParasite, or DrP. Dan to my friends, or to the competent members of these forums. you would not happen to be one of them.This anti-gun fueled rhetoric might be commonplace in some areas of the country, but I think it's kinda "knee jerk" for the most part.what anti-gun rhetoric are you talking about? knee jerk? are you smoking crack again?1) YOU don't decide whether a LEO is armed or not. He is a cop, and carrying that "gun" is his #1 purpose for "being". In every place that I work, I do decide if a cop carries while in the back of my ambulance. and in case you are wondering, I can think of a few places where cops don't carry, even if they want to. off the top of my head, the station jail/holding cell area, state and county correctional facilities, and secure psychiatric emergency facilities, and that's just off the top of my head. and I guess I'm wrong, I always thought a cop's number one purpose for "being" was to enforce the laws in the area that they served in. my mistake, thanks for clearing that up for me :rolleyes: You don't call 911, or for LEO backup, because you want blue lights, cruisers, or even personnel. You call for someone to bring a GUN to protect you.
The officer is just a man, it's the GUN that makes you safe.
Otherwise you just have another warm body. or I can just call the local gun nut, because according to you, the officer and all his training isn't important, the only thing I need is a gun.....
2) Guns don't kill people, Doctors do.
Ok, I'm kidding. That's actual Statistics, but not what I'm saying.
PEOPLE do more damage than Guns, and CRIMINAL types do more harm than LEO's and law abiding gunowners by an ENCREDIBLE disproportion.
now that sounds like the babble of a gun nut.....:rolleyes: Now let me tell you how it is SUPPOSED to work.
An LEO or Gun Owner is responsible for their weapon. Them and ONLY them.
To leave it elsewhere is a "NoNo".Oh, i get it. so if a gun owner needs to be taken to the hospital for a medical emergency, you have them take all their firearms with them right? or even better, if they are having a psych emergency, make sure all their guns are with them in the ambulance, because "To leave it elsewhere is a 'NoNo'". Now do you realize how stupid that statement is? I will say your LEO comment might make a little more sense, but not a civilian gun owner. and if the civilian gun owner won't relinquish his gun, i'm sure the LEO will have no problem removing it from his possession.
A while back, I was involved in a Search & Rescue operation where a lady wondered away from the nursing home and into a wooded area.
We ALWAYS carry firearms in "the bush", and this time I had a .45 Auto on my hip.
(you'd hafta know our local snake population personally to understand)

When found, the lady was in BAD shape.
She coded just prior to transport.
I've never worked in the sticks, or in hickville, or in middle of nowhere america. so all I can say is I guess by you, everyone gets their first gun about the same time they get their drivers license, and what you just said has absolutely no relevance to anything. I rode along and assisted to the E.D., assisted IN the E.R., and then was given a ride back to my truck.
I was ARMED the WHOLE TIME.wow. you must feel like a big man right? hey, if you allow potentially untrained civilians to carry loaded firearms in your ambulances, I guess it works for you. I think that's incredibly stupid, but I don't work in the middle of nowhere, so I guess different places have different rules and do things a little differently. And I will make sure to avoid Mississippi because of it.
My firearm made "diddly" difference to anyone or anything about the entire situation, and with the exception of some added weight on my side was a non-issue.good for you.

No, I'm not a LEO.poll of hands: how many people allow random civilians, non-LEO EMS or Fire personnel, or the resident gun nut to carry loaded firearms on their person in the ambulance?

hmmm, quiet room...... i think I hear a cricket or two in the background....
But I understand the place where you are coming from.
Folks that are unaccustomed to seeing firearms do tend to be afraid of them.
Just like folks who don't Jump or Dive are fearful of jumping out of an airplane or being 60 feet under water.

It's a psychological disorder that you just have to get over.
That piece of machinery is about 500 times less likely to kill you than your automobile.sure...... i guess...... don't know what conclusions you are drawing, but you couldn't be more wrong, at least about me.
I would suggest taking a firearms class to help you overcome your phobia.
It will also help you be a good "brother" to the cops you work around rather than alienating them. (which is NOT a good idea for folks who tend to expect "professional courtesy")

I know we all have our own ways, but if you were working with me I would advise you to just let it go and not make it an issue.what phobia are you talking about? I used to shoot on a regular basis. rifles, shotgun, hand guns, an uzi once when I was down in florida, I've shot them all. not at people, usually in a target range. but a gun in general doesn't scare me. I have no gun phobia, regardless of what insane ideas might be running through your extremely backwater head.

that being said, I work full time in an urban city (the same one that Norm used to work for back when he did EMS). It is their policy for police officers to give their sidearms to their partner (who follow behind the ambulance) during the transport from a scene to the hospital. In fact, we did a transport from police HQ to the hospital with 3 LEOs from the county prosecutors officer with us (2 in the truck, one in the car behind us). the two prosecutors officers transporting with us gave their guns to the trailing officer. it's not that hard.

The former city where I worked did the same thing. as do most of the suburban towns where we do mutual aid to. This isn't the middle of nowhere, this is urban and suburban America.

Just so there is no confusion, I would never ask a LEO to leave his sidearm with a civilian, or locked in an unattended vehicle, or anywhere unsecured. The firearm is given to another LEO for transport out of the ambulance, and prior to exiting the ambulance, the officer gets out first and his sidearm is returned to him by the officer following the ambulance.

And no, the resident gun nut (or the EMT who happens to have a gun on him) does not get to keep his gun with him in the ambulance because it's his property. Again, you might do that in the sticks, but around here, law enforcement would be given the firearm and deal with it anyway they want to.

btw, in case anyone was curious, many cops have other weapons on their possession besides their sidearms. many of these weapons require training to be proficient at, so if a criminal gets ahold of said secondary weapon, they have a smaller chance of fatally injuring anyone else on the first attempt. but the cop can be pretty good with said weapon, capable of disabling almost anyone.

wow, that was longer that I expected, but certain posts are just too stupid to not respond to.

[preston124]

I work both as a paramedic and LEO.

- I don't carry a gun or any other weapon while wearing my medic uniform. I have needed LEO's to ride with me on occasion, and never asked one to give up his weapon. Without a weapon, why do I need him in the first place? I am trained in how to properly restrain patients.

- As a LEO, I would not give up my weapon riding in the back of an ambulance. There would be a paramedic riding alone.

[DrParasite]

question: when you have a LEO with you, does his partner/another officer follow behind in a patrol car? or does he secure his vehicle and it's just you and him for the entire trip?

[cellblock]

Incredable. This thread, about insisting that commissioned police officers disarm before riding along in an ambulance, is still alive after 5 years. Of all the topics you would think worthy of such a life span, this is the one which lives on.
Sad. Really.

[PureAdrenalin]

question: when you have a LEO with you, does his partner/another officer follow behind in a patrol car? or does he secure his vehicle and it's just you and him for the entire trip?

In our district, yes, they either ride with, follow behind or both. Depends on the specific type of run.

In my opinion, the LEO has his gun for a reason, and I expect him to be able to decide WHEN it is to be employed and understand the confines in which it's being used, both for his safety, mine and my partner. I would prefer he use his tazer or pepper spray WELL before he uses his sidearm.

Now, onto the subject of Medics with guns...

In my area, I would kill to carry one, during the summer we operate in some of the most violent and dangerous areas of the city on a very regular basis. Shootings are a nightly occurrence, battery's are constant, I think the record for my service area alone is 68 in a 24hr period. I've gotten called to just random medical calls to find out on arrival it's an all out war. PT's have pulled knives, guns, bottles and other weapons on me...thankfully enough, I've never incurred any injuries..but..having a nice .45 on my hip would make me feel a bit better and I'm sure any PT who is going to try to assault me to get my narcs would think much differently.

[med9044]

If its a Police matter then its their call.

[PhillyRube]

I too am a paramedic and a LEO, a patrol sergeant. While I no longer have to ride in the ambulance with a patient as a LEO, my officers do. They WILL NOT DISARM. Most of the time they ride to the hospital with a patient, and once they are finished with their obligation, they call me, and either I pick them up or I send another officer to return them to their car.

Riding the ambulance on an assigned duty, well, the fanny pack contains many tools of the trade. Which trade? Both.

[SMStL]

. . .since this thread has been necro'd anyway:

I transported an inmate a couple weeks ago from the hospital back to prison.

It was an LD call, so we had both a LEO rider and a LEO tail.

I never even gave a thought to the officer's equipment, I just let him do his job, and he let me do mine.

And even though I understand he had to do his job (eg. shackle the pt to the stretcher), he didn't even really have to (and we all knew it). The pt was weak as a kitten (he was dying; his prognosis was only 6-8 weeks.)

On the positive side, the pt was going to get out of prison soon (albeit by an unfortunate method.)

Honestly, it was a pleasant trip; they were both friendly (pt and rider), and it was nice to have 2 people to talk to on such a long trip.

All that said, other then PD or other LEOs, I would not tolerate any weapons of any sort on my rig (not even in my own possessions.) If I couldn't run or shield, I'd just use an extinguisher or O2 tank.

[dr-exmedic]

All that said, other then PD or other LEOs, I would not tolerate any weapons of any sort on my rig (not even in my own possessions.) If I couldn't run or shield, I'd just use an extinguisher or O2 tank.
What's the saying? "You should never bring an O2 tank to a gun fight...." ;)

[LasVegasEMS]

I also did not read through the entire thread but wanted to post this after reading the last couple pages.

In my experience, the only time an officer rides in my unit is when they want to, not because I ask them to. If I need extra hands to take care of a pysch patient, then I bring a FF or 2 with me and leave it at that. I've never had to ask an officer to ride in because quite frankly, they can do as much as a FF can in that situation; I say this because the likelyhood of them shooting someone in the back is almost nill.

So, in my experience, if they come, it's because they want to. If they want to, then they can play by my rules, which are similiar to DrP, or Dan since he threw it out there LOL. If they don't want to play by my rules, then get out. An officer enforces laws, but doesn't have the ability or authority to tell law abiding citizens how things are going to work; this isn't a dictatorship. So, if in the pursuit of my legal obligation to care for a patient, they want to ride along, sure, but drop that sidearm off somewhere else.

For those that say we don't have the right to tell a commisioned officer to unarm himself, look at is this way. If an officer walked into Starbucks and they told him he couldn't come in unless he left his gun outside, he would have to leave because it's private property and they make the rules. Same thing, my work place (rig), my patient, my call.

P.S. As immature as this is, I couldn't let it slide. MarionMedic, you sir, are a tool.

[Resq14]

I also did not read through the entire thread but wanted to post this after reading the last couple pages.

In my experience, the only time an officer rides in my unit is when they want to, not because I ask them to. If I need extra hands to take care of a pysch patient, then I bring a FF or 2 with me and leave it at that. I've never had to ask an officer to ride in because quite frankly, they can do as much as a FF can in that situation; I say this because the likelyhood of them shooting someone in the back is almost nill.

So, in my experience, if they come, it's because they want to. If they want to, then they can play by my rules, which are similiar to DrP, or Dan since he threw it out there LOL. If they don't want to play by my rules, then get out. An officer enforces laws, but doesn't have the ability or authority to tell law abiding citizens how things are going to work; this isn't a dictatorship. So, if in the pursuit of my legal obligation to care for a patient, they want to ride along, sure, but drop that sidearm off somewhere else.

For those that say we don't have the right to tell a commisioned officer to unarm himself, look at is this way. If an officer walked into Starbucks and they told him he couldn't come in unless he left his gun outside, he would have to leave because it's private property and they make the rules. Same thing, my work place (rig), my patient, my call.

Fascinating "interpretation" of the law and reality, ambulance driver. Perhaps if you treated your cranial rectal inversion, you'd see how flawed your position is, if you're actually serious and not just stirring up a **** storm. I can look at this from both sides of the fence, can you?

If, in the performance of my duties, I needed to go into Starbucks, the hippies could cry about guns all day/night long. If they tried to interfere, they'd go to jail. In my state, it's called obstructing government administration.

Now that you've been educated, I'd laugh if you pulled that here. Then, depending on the situation,
- You'd be told to ****** off and do your job, or
- I'd call another ambo with a competent crew, or
- I'd transport in my chariot myself

If you were lucky you wouldn't be charged and/or reported to your supervisor. As a professional, I'd hope it would NEVER come to such an embarrassing (for you) outcome.

PS - I LAWFULLY tell people I encounter how things are going to be EVERY SHIFT -- for my safety, my team's safety (including EMS), the public's safety, and their safety. SCOTUS agrees I can, too. So in summary, ambulance driver, if you want to play cop, be one. You might just change your tune.

[LasVegasEMS]

Fascinating "interpretation" of the law and reality, ambulance driver. Perhaps if you treated your cranial rectal inversion, you'd see how flawed your position is, if you're actually serious and not just stirring up a **** storm.

If, in the performance of my duties, I needed to go into Starbucks, the hippies could cry about guns all day/night long. If they tried to interfere, they'd go to jail. In my state, it's called obstructing government administration.

I'd laugh if you pulled that here. Then, depending on the situation,
- You'd be told to ****** off and do your job, or
- I'd call another ambo with a competent crew, or
- I'd transport in my chariot myself

If you were lucky you wouldn't be charged and/or reported to your supervisor.

PS - I LAWFULLY tell people I encounter how things are going to be EVERY SHIFT -- for my safety, my team's safety, the public's safety, and their safety. SCOTUS agrees I can, too. So in summary, ambulance driver, if you want to play cop, be one.

Wow, yet another person who doesn't belong on these boards. You say ambulance driver, but the Paramedic or EMT is the first one you'd want there once you take a bullet to the chest; what a joke! Also, you need to learn some reading comprehension, because no where did I talk about going into Starbucks during the course of duty, I mentioned it as if you were to just walk in their on your lunch break, in which case they could very well legally ask you to leave.

I feel bad for the crews in your area then, because the cops think they can tell them how to do their job. That's why the public doesn't like cops for the most part, because <b>most</b> of them come to work on a power trip and try to control things they have no right controlling. If you LEGALLY tell someone whats up, thats one thing, doing it ILLEGALLY is something completely different. It's a shame a cop, like yourself apparently, can't take his head out of his *** long enough to be objective about this.

P.S. If you want to play Paramedic/EMT, then be one; stop pretending to ber something you're not. Also, it'd be funny to see how you acted outside of your system, you'd probably end up being left on a street corner somewhere.

[Resq14]

I don't belong here? Ouch, I've been here since 1999.

- The only way your Starbucks "example" is pertinent is regarding official business. I have no desire to have lunch in the back of the bus while you taxi a psych somewhere. If I have some concern about accompanying a patient being transported, it is official business. Otherwise, I could care less what you do. I'd PREFER you to transport without me being involved in any way. But if I need to be involved, my gun and all the tools on my bat belt will be with me.

- I play the EMS game and have for 15+ years -- big deal, hooray for me. I can deal with being called "cop" and deal with being called "ambulance driver." The whiners that can't... well it says a lot right there.

wahhhhhh
Exactly.

I bet you like to argue WHO IS IN CHARGE at car crashes, too. Yes, this is serious stuff that really needs to be debated... In my area EMS, FF's, and LEO's have a mutual understanding of each-other's jobs and responsibilities, and respect each-other professionally. We work together as a team and don't get hung-up in this diddily crap.

[LasVegasEMS]

I don't belong here? Ouch, I've been here since 1999.

- The only way your Starbucks "example" is pertinent is regarding official business. I have no desire to have lunch in the back of the bus while you taxi a psych somewhere. If I have some concern about accompanying a patient being transported, it is official business. Otherwise, I could care less what you do. I'd PREFER you to transport without me being involved in any way. But if I need to be involved, my gun and all the tools on my bat belt will be with me.

- I play the EMS game and have for 15+ years -- big deal, hooray for me. I can deal with being called "cop" and deal with being called "ambulance driver." The whiners that can't... well it says a lot right there.


Exactly.

I bet you like to argue WHO IS IN CHARGE at car crashes, too. Yes, this is serious stuff that really needs to be debated...

I like how forged something that I said HAHA. I'm pretty sure wahhhh didn't show up in any of my prior posts.

Like I said, it'd be interesting to see you operate out of your system. From the way you speak, it's LEO like yourself that give LEO a bad name.

P.S. Would you be okay with being called a security guard?

[Resq14]

We call ourselves babysitters, garbage men, community counselors... these are the mild ones.

Please. Security Guard would be a step up.

Learn to laugh at yourself. There are more important things in life. I know both of my state licensed and certified jobs quite well. I don't get hung up on what I'm labeled as a means to prove my competence. In my experience, the people who DO get hung up on it do so to make up for professional incompetence. Not saying that's you, of course...

In my area, the only people who feel that LEO's deserve a "bad name" are "bad guys" and "bad girls", with varying degrees of "badness" (examples: from speeding to rape, blowing a stop sign to aggravated assault with deadly weapon). I could give a rat's *** what they think of me for doing my job professionally.

Oh, and you might want to read this thread in its ENTIRETY.

[LasVegasEMS]

We call ourselves babysitters, garbage men, community counselors... these are the mild ones.

Please. Security Guard would be a step up.

Learn to laugh at yourself. There are more important things in life. I know both of my state licensed and certified jobs quite well. I don't get hung up on what I'm labeled as a means to prove my competence. In my experience, the people who DO get hung up on it do so to make up for professional incompetence. Not saying that's you, of course...

In my area, the only people who feel that LEO's deserve a "bad name" are "bad guys" and "bad girls", with varying degrees of "badness" (examples: from speeding to rape, blowing a stop sign to aggravated assault with deadly weapon). I could give a rat's *** what they think of me for doing my job professionally.

Oh, and you might want to read this thread in its ENTIRETY.

The EMS Profession is no where near as established as Law Enforcement, therefore, in our continued effort to excel the profession, we should use more appropriate terms. Nuff Said.

I breezed through the entire thread, all points have been beaten to a pulp, still didn't see where you tried to forge stuff from. But hey, whatever you have to do to try and make a point. Have a good day.

[SgtScott31]

Resq..

While I am in the same position as you regarding LEOs carrying firearms (as I am both a LEO SGT & EMT-IV) in ambulances, it is inappropriate to call any medics "ambulance drivers."

It is the same as calling us security guards, and an insult at best.

Anyone can get paid $6 an hour to drive an ambulance after a few hours of EVOC. The minimum DOT EMT class is over 400 hours. Just as LEOs get 20 times the training as security folks, so do EMTs and EMT-Ps compared to "ambulance drivers." Not sure about the rest of the US, but in middle TN, EMTs and EMT-Ps staff the ALS units.

Although you and I have probably been called every name in the book, it doesn't mean we should spread the wealth of immaturity on an internet forum designed for public safety professionals to discuss their opinions on topics like this one.

To both of you..be safe out there.

[VentMedic]

Resq..

Anyone can get paid $6 an hour to drive an ambulance after a few hours of EVOC.

The minimum DOT EMT class is over 400 hours.


Just a slight clarification:

That's your EMT-IV class in TN?

Minimum for EMT-B is 110 hours.

Correct, you do not have to be an EMT to drive an ambulance in many states. Some Specialty teams use Security Guards.

Some areas of this great country barely have BLS ambulance services.

With 50+ different EMS certs in this country and some states have up to 8 different levels, who cares what we are called since we can't agree on any of them anyway. Some states even use different titles other than EMT and Paramedic.

And now a lengthy discussion about guns? Another identity crisis for some in EMS?

We don't respect each other in EMS and it often shows on this forum. We constantly bicker about public, private, volunteer, fire, PD, education, titles etc.

Glad you LEO guys could join us so some can have someone new to bash for awhile.

EMS personnel should know the rules, regulations and laws of their State, county and work place. Let the LEOs do their job because their concern is also safety. Express your concerns to them before boarding the truck and let them position themselves in the ambulance to their advantage, for your work space and safety for all.

[croaker260]

Las Vegas, You and I agree on 99% of stuff on here. But not this time.

IMHO, This is rapidly becoming one of the more asinine threads I have seen. "Its MY ambulance!"...no.."Its MY Gun!"...

You know there is an argument that can be made for safety and firearms on an ambulance. Just because you CAN make that argument, doesnt mean you SHOULD make it.

Its similar to the cops DEMANDING we open up the lane next to where we are working. There is a legal basis for them to do so in most states...so they have a right to do so...doesnt mean they SHOULD do so. And if we didnt spend so much time measuring our phallus, we probably wouldnt be screaming at each other over it in the first place.

Its similar to the Fire Service DEMANDING they are in charge of an extrication instead of the medics. There is a principle to that, and they have a legit argument. Doesnt mean there SHOULD be an argument over it. And if we didnt spend so much time measuring slapping our wing dings in each others chereos, we probably wouldnt be screaming at each other that either.

Its also similar to a physician of any type (OB, Dematologist, etc) taking over care on scene. They have a right to, but if we approached it tactfully and didnt make it a face saving issue for most docs, most would prefer NOT to. It wouldnt be an issue in most cases. Once again, if we werent gauging our collective vaginal depth.....

While I have huge issues with my local FDs, I surprisingly get along very well on scene..I dont HAVE to fight a battle over the spawled body of my patients. Because I havent engaged in useless and trite issues..I save my "clout" for when it matters. Same with PD (except I like them mostly).

And quite frankly and honestly, a SOBER AND UNIFORMED OFFICER (who is not a patient), ON DUTY, CARRYING HIS SIDE ARM in his class whatever retention holster the 50 or so square feet of my rig when he has been carrying it around the same bad guy before he was cuffed/hooked/ booked/pounded/ grounded/ tased/maced/etc in a far less controlled enviroment is a TRITE issue.

I am far more worried about whatever issues brought law enforcement involved with the Dirtbag/Perp/Whiskey Tango/ Ho-dunk-po-dunk-Well There-Then-Mutha Fu**a in the first place. THAT is a far bigger threat than the man in Blue or Tan sitting on the bench seat.

And honestly, If I take this realistic approach, they are more likely to take a realistic approach on crap that really does matter to me, like closing down that lane on the interstate.

[LasVegasEMS]

Perhaps I'm just tainted by bad experiences, could very well be. Croak..as usual you make a good amount of sense and SgtScott, thank you for seeing where I was coming from with that, despite our differences of opinion.

Also, after rereading this post, I will say that I have let officers ride with guns, it's not a point of contention. However, as stated before, most of the time its cause they want to ride, and, although it'll upset those here, they usually want to ride and make it much more difficult to do my job; for instance, trying to talk over me while I'm assessing, treating, and transporting the drunk girl who cracked her sternum on impact of her car into the wall. Just stuff like that that taints my view.

[DrParasite]

while I really don't feel the need to comment about the 14 pages of responses, this statement I had to respond to:
- You'd be told to ****** off and do your job, or
so your going to be grossly unprofessional, act like a total jerk off, and order the crew to do heir job? yeah, that will really get the crew to do what you want :rolleyes:

- I'd call another ambo with a competent crew, orand what exactly is making them incompetent? because they won't do what you say? does this mean any time an EMS crew doesn't follow the orders (when correct or not) they are immediately deemed incompetent? and we wonder why EMS isn't considered on the same level as fire and police...
- I'd transport in my chariot myselfDO IT!!!!! if you ask ANY paid EMT what he thought about your transporting someone in your patrol car, he would say go for it. one less chart for EMS to write. not only that, but most EMS systems are understaffed, so if you want to transport in your car, knock yourself out. I'm pretty sure you will get no argument. just don't call the ambulance, do it yourself (like cops can do for psych patients and such, not much an ambulance is going to do for a crazy people anyway, except transport them to a hospital).

btw, ever tried arguing with a cop? it never happens.... until they are wrong... and even then most won't even admit it.

[Resq14]

Amen, Croaker.

Resq..

While I am in the same position as you regarding LEOs carrying firearms (as I am both a LEO SGT & EMT-IV) in ambulances, it is inappropriate to call any medics "ambulance drivers."

It is the same as calling us security guards, and an insult at best.

Tongue in cheek... I don't fret about what I'm labeled, nor do I use the term in "reality." I was just curious if LasVegas was the type that overreacts to some slight button-pushing. My feelings on these labels isn't an unheard of point of view as an EMS provider, either: see here: http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=6423&page=2 (I see you're a member over there, VentMedic)

and what exactly is making them incompetent? because they won't do what you say?.
Main Entry: in·com·pe·tent
Pronunciation: \(ˌ)in-ˈkäm-pə-tənt\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle French incompétent, from in- + compétent competent
Date: 1595
1: Not having or showing enough ability, knowledge, or skill.

Dan... lol. You never cease to amaze me. Telling an officer to remove his gun is beyond the scope of an EMS provider's professional training (aka unprofessional), so yes, they would be met with an equally unprofessional comment. If the provider continued to act in such a ridiculous manner, then yes, I'd move on to Plans B or C. I wouldn't expect a cop to question a medic's placement of her scalpel whilst performing a cricothyrotomy, I wouldn't expect a cop to question a firefighter's pump pressure for a 200' 1.75" line with a smoothbore on a 3rd floor, and I wouldn't expect a cop to question a dispatcher's pre-arrival medical instructions to callers. Doing so is UNPROFESSIONAL in my opinion.

I transport prisoners with minor injuries and psych's in my cruiser all the time. I'm a huge fan of keeping an ALS ambo and crew in service for an actual, honest-to-God emergency. Oh, and I argue with cops routinely. I think I win a fair portion of the time. ;)

BTW, what "level" is EMS at if it isn't at the "fire and police" level? Seems like the old chip-on-the-shoulder syndrome... You know the one... the same, tired, rhetoric that gets a cover story in JEMS every 10 months or so.

In my quaint area, we view EMS as an equal partner in the public safety family, as we do with the FD, communications, etc. And it's always sunny, the birds are always singing in the trees, and everyone whistles while they work... or something like that. My point is, mutual respect and understanding of each other's roles and responsibilities is critical. I feel that I'm lucky to have solid experience as an LEO, EMS provider, firefighter, and dispatcher. My experiences have only made me better at each of these fields, and a more well-rounded person.

PS - I only decided to be a cop so I could get to medical calls first.:eek:

[croaker260]

IMHO, This is rapidly becoming one of the more asinine threads I have seen. "Its MY ambulance!"...no.."Its MY Gun!"...



Just felt it bore repeating.