Good Firefighter bad with EMS

[nbfcfireman]

I am with a volunteer company that had just started to improve our requirements for new firefighters. New recruits now have to get their CFR or EMT-D. But the fightfighters that have 15+ years do not have to hold any type of EMS card except for CPR/AED. Our Chiefs( all 25+ years) are great when it comes to fire but horrid, to the point of embarrasment, when it comes to EMS. They are the first on location but they cant even do a simple BLS patient assessment. I would like to see the level of care rise among our Chiefs. What do suggest I suggest to them to raise the level of care that they provide.

-Embarrassed Firefighter

[smurfe]

tough question, I guess all I could say if the Chiefs are "unapproachable" on the matter, you could either bring it to their superiors attention or maybe get a "concerned" citizen to write a letter to the editor in the newspaper and maybe embarrass them into getting some training or just not showing up on calls they have no reason to be at. I do know where you are coming from and realize that many times they can be intimidating to approach

Smurfe:D

[N2DFire]

not that it will do much good but you may try to remind them that the best leaders lead by example. I won't ask my crews to do anything I won't (or don't) do.

And I'll tell you from the other side of the fence (as a leader) sometimes that's a pretty tall order to fill.

[LadyCapn]

nbfcfireman, I can almost 100% assure you it comes down to one thing...... FEAR

EMS has always been scary to the dinosaurs.....errrrrrrrr I mean the old timers. They've never had to do it and are terrified at the very thought of it.

My suggestion? Invite some of the EMS guys/gals in to familiarize them with the equipment. Find a patient teacher or instructor to teach the EFR courses. Someone who will explain things to them in simple terms, take the extra time to let them practice some more. If you see them doing something wrong, or if they miss something, talk to them about it, but do it in such a way as not to embarass them or make them feel inadequate. Take them aside afterwards, or if circumstances permit, point out interesting things you see "Do you notice how the patient is breathing? That is called Cheyne Stoking and normally indicates this......" "Watch the pattern" "Notice how the R side of the patients mouth is drooping and the blink is different? Can't notice it right away? Ask them to try to smile, that should make it more obvious"

It's not going to work for all of them, but once they become a little more comfortable with EMS and patient assessments, you will see a huge change in skills and attitude.
Good Luck

[kghemtp]

I totally agree with our Canadian colleague on this one. Suggestion of training would be out of necessity since some officers are first on the scene before the apparatus gets there. You want the officers to impress people with their composure and ability to provide the basics. More than that, though, getting basics done early is best for the patient. People see things, though, so we need to be conscious of what our actions (or lack of action) says to patients & family members. Great thread!

[IAMedic]

Work with them and train with them!! Help them feel comfortable in a EMS role. Do the best you can to make their uneasiness subside. But, let's face it. Your chief-to-emt ratio will probably not improve. If they don't want to do EMS, then your dept will have to either deal with it, or ask them to take a different role. It depends on how hard you want to get on them. Myself, I would leave them in a command role and ask them to help as much as they feel comfortable with. I am not going to make them learn EMS, especially if I don't think it will do much good or create anxiety on the dept.

Good Luck!!

[smurfe]

Myself, I would leave them in a command role and ask them to help as much as they feel comfortable with. I am not going to make them learn EMS, especially if I don't think it will do much good or create anxiety on the dept.

I think where he is coming from is that the Chiefs are usually on scene first and are standing there doing absolutely nothing and makes the Department look bad is the way I read it and He/She either wants the Chiefs to learn EMS skills or stay off the scenes. I have to say I would totally agree with this if I were in his shoes. Years ago when I first became an EMT, I was the original/first on the department. It was always embarrassing to arrive on a scene and have an engine company standing there with the look of a deer staring into the headlights when I arrived and then would be absolutely no help and mind you, this was simple BLS in 1979 so we didn't even have the skills Basics do now! On a cardiac arrest, I would have to do one man CPR (and we did mouth to mouth then) for a good 15-20 minutes or better till a transport unit got there with the norm being a half hour and then 99% of the time I would ride in with them and help the Ambulance attendant with CPR. It used to really tee me off that the old timers would say" Son, I am a fireman, if that patient is on fire I will put them out but till then, I am a fireman and don't need none of that ambulance training" THen at the coffee shop the next morning would be blowing off about an EMS call about how they saved the persons life! So I guess that even though that was 23-24 years ago, it is still the same in some areas, and did anyone think to remember that those chiefs he is talking about are the from the same era as me and look at me now! LOL I am a traditionalist and put up resistance to new probably as much as them, but I will accept what is thrown upon me. I personally feel that as paramedics we are heaped upon way too many meds and skills and should stick to the meat and potatoes stuff but hey, if the industry says do this, I do this.
OK, enough of the old man ranting again here

Smurfe:D

[42VTExplorer]

New recruits now have to get their CFR or EMT-D

Not to sound rude, I'm just curious, where are they still giving out EMT-D certifications? I'm not sure about the whole United States, but in Vermont I believe they only allow you to recertify if you have your EMT-D.

[ALS142]

I have a Chief who is 63 y/o. A great guy, a great leader. There isn't anyone else I would want in command of a firescene. But when he shows up on a bad MVA, he seems to be on the edge of panic when it come to injured people. Granted, he wasn't trained in EMS and he never gets involved in patient care (we handle the call the way we feel fit), but still he hasn't grasped the concept that the patient is the one with the disease.

As for changing your Chief and the older firefighters, let it go. You can't teach an old dog new tricks. Your Chief seems to have embraced this idea, but at least he's trying to advance the cause by requiring newer, and new, personnel to obtain the minimal in medical training.

[IAMedic]

Well put, 142!!

[ALSfirefighter]

Unfortunately, this is how the fire service generally works when any type of new operation comes into play, regardless of what it is. I also completely understand your frustrations, but I also have to say that your post doesn't exactly lead yourself or us into a clear direction of what it seems your exactly looking for. You state they can't do a basic BLS assessment, but what exactly do you consider a BLS assessment? Is it just ABC's or are you talking about the BLS assessment that is the hallmark of anyone in EMS whether you are a EMT or Medic. If they are trained in CPR then they only need to recognize ABC's. Perhaps getting a change to CPR with first aid would be a reasonable request if many of your coworkers agree with what you find as a problem. Beyond that there isn't much more you can expect out of them. Also from a management aspect, if they are only CPR certified, there also could be a liability issue if they partake in something above what they are qualified to do and cause a worse injury. I'm not a huge liability this and liability that type of person, many on here will tell you they agree.

Basically I think you could do only a few things. Improve the training as far as first aid and ems goes. Hopefully they will want to take part, but if they are against the EMS tide they will probably remain skeptical, and sometimes more in depth training can make it even worse.

Finally, as we are finally seeing in my dept, we are almost 100% staffed with personnel whom have some EMS certification at EMT-B or above and we are actually getting to have more medics then EMT's. We also fall under command of vollie chiefs, and I'm not gonna debate the pro's and con's of that, but most that come and go have an idea of what bad is thru experience, and those who don't, do not interfere with what we are doing. Only occassionally does one here or there get a tiff about a decision made or what LZ we are going to use compared to what we request but it usually works out in the end.
__________________________________
IACOJ Bureau of EMS Chairman

[ff7134]

We have been in the process of fazing out the FF only people. Luckily our Chief was a young and excited FF when we started handling EMS so he is a certified EMT-I and both of our Asst Chiefs are Medics. We Meedic assist a near by Dept that have no medics and their officer mostly are not EMT's. They are calling for the choppers on MVA's and other calls only to have them cancelled by our medics when they get on scene and assess the situation. Then their officers get a little PO'd that this "lowly" FireMedic is countermanding thier decisions.

[kghemtp]

Well that's where a training session is needed about what varied levels of training can offer a department, and a joint training with your mutual aid towns would be helpful so they can get up to speed with an understanding of ALS. Some paramedics feel they can rule the roost on calls, and when it comes to medical decisions they do, but when dealing with fire officers & police who have other equally important roles on scene, professional courtesy needs to prevail. An ALS provider should be in contact with a command officer about patient care requirements, and give a brief explanation of why he feels this one can go by by ground.

[Whpfd738]

I am kinda blessed in a sense becasue my chief is a Full Time Paramedic with Bradley Airport Fire. Even though your chief does not have any cert. he should be on the street corner doing ICS (Incident Cammand System) any way. But Thats not the reason im writing hear. I think that there should be no FF/EMTs. I think u should leave all the "Bus Geek" work for the ambulance jokeys and leave the real work for the firefighters. So all i am really saying that is there should be no mixed Firefighters w/ Medics, so u wont have to worry about crap like this its to small of a thing to worry about.

[kghemtp]

Ok folks, I sense the beginning of a new topic here!

"I think that there should be no FF/EMTs. I think u should leave all the "Bus Geek" work for the ambulance jokeys and leave the real work for the firefighters. So all i am really saying that is there should be no mixed Firefighters w/Medics, so u wont have to worry about crap like this its to small of a thing to worry about"

Ladies & gentleman, any thoughts? I say let the games begin!

Perhaps the number of medical calls we run as firefighters speak nothing about necessity of the fire service in EMS. Somewhere in the US there is a private ambulance service writing this guy a job offer right now! How do you see the benefit of having your chief a paramedic, yet have no use for the combination fire/ems? Are you of the opinion an ambulance in the fire station is the punishment truck? I've often wondered if people out there have this feeling.

[ALS142]

Opinions are like *******s, everyone's got one. Unfortunately, Whpfd738 apparentyly suffers from the "Big Axe, Little Dick" syndrome. It's been my experience, in both Fire and EMS, that those FFs who denigrate (Whfpd738, that means make fun of)the EMS sector of public safety generally are the ones who are unable to complete the EMT curriculum. And if they do have to pass, you never see them on the ambulance but they're the first to overreact on a scene. God must love stupid people, He made so many of them.

[IAMedic]

Originally posted by Whpfd738
I am kinda blessed in a sense becasue my chief is a Full Time Paramedic with Bradley Airport Fire. Even though your chief does not have any cert. he should be on the street corner doing ICS (Incident Cammand System) any way. But Thats not the reason im writing hear. I think that there should be no FF/EMTs. I think u should leave all the "Bus Geek" work for the ambulance jokeys and leave the real work for the firefighters. So all i am really saying that is there should be no mixed Firefighters w/ Medics, so u wont have to worry about crap like this its to small of a thing to worry about.

Your post makes absolutely no sense. First, your praising your chief for being a Paramedic & FF and in the next moment your showing your ignorance by resorting to name calling.

It isn't needed. Indeed you are far too young and/or immature to be in this business. If you are so set against EMS, stay out of our "Bus Geek" Forums.

[smurfe]

But Thats not the reason im writing hear. I think that there should be no FF/EMTs. I think u should leave all the "Bus Geek" work for the ambulance jokeys and leave the real work for the firefighters.

I to am totally appalled at this statement. I am sure this is some teen-aged punk who has no concept of what "service to community" means.

And all you dedicated volunteers please don't take this the wrong as as I totally respect what you do as you do it for love not money (this is my total disclaimer) But I am sure this is a young punk *** volunteer with 30 flashing lights on his ford pickup with 3 scanners who drives 80 mph down main street responding to a grass fire who shows up on every call, Fire OR EMS has his badge clipped to his belt right next to the dinner plate sized belt buckle to match his VFD ball cap with 37 FD pins on it and knows it all and then after the call tells stories to impress the chicks as he slides the tray of Fries across the counter to them at McDonald's!

Once again, this is not a Volunteer slam but you have all seen the type I am talking about and yes you see the young paid punks to! I am glad this forum is not filled with the likes of this punk and that we are a very professional group here.

Now obviously I know EVERYONE is entitled to their opinion and many on here do disagree but it is always respectful and thankfully we don't have to read this childish garbage on here much. I also agree that his statement didn't make any sense at all as he praised his chief than slammed all of us. It is obvious he can't afford a Corvette to satisfy his inadequacies that he possesses so he must hide here behind the great internet gods to babble his gibberish.

Thank you to all the regular participating members of this group that make this an enjoyable, fun relaxing place to spend down time at. I guess I am glad that this post came around so I could take all my frustrations from all the "class" citizens of my community I met yesterday that tried my patience ALL day out on this total punk looser.

Smurfe :D

[IAMedic]

Originally posted by smurfe
...I guess I am glad that this post came around so I could take all my frustrations from all the "class" citizens of my community I met yesterday that tried my patience ALL day out on this total punk looser.

But, Smurfe:D, how do you really feel?? ROFLMAO

[smurfe]

But, Smurfe, how do you really feel?? ROFLMAO

For some reason, I feel very refreshed and rejuvenated LOL


Smurfe:D

[LadyCapn]

" Makes a rotating motion with her arms and chants.............go smurfe, go smurfe, go smurfe..........." :D

As for our young whippersnapper.........first of all, when you are capable of writing an intelligent sentence, please feel free to return and post. Until then, I do believe you either have a date with a dictionary or one with your grade 8 english teacher.:rolleyes:

Smurfe, may I add few more potential descriptives here? And again, I mean no disrespect to anyone who may resemble this loosely but...........Whpfd738.......let me guess......you are a third or fourth generation small town "firefighter" and you're just spouting off what your papa and his papa and his papa before him are saying right?
:rolleyes:

Such a shame to see a dinasour evolve before they even leave the pup stage:(

[ALS142]

Smurfe,

It makes my heart glad to see that there were no animals hurt in the posting you made. Thank-you on behalf of PETA (People Eating Tasty Animals).

[hageremtp]

"Bus Geek" work for the ambulance jokeys and leave the real work for the firefighters.

Thats a great idea, so next time we Bus Geeks go on a medical call, PLEASE DRIVE YOUR BIG RED FIRE TRUCK AT POSTED SPEEDS and mind your own business! Do not pass our geek bus...you have no business at a medical call anyways. You do not need to beat us to our call, then jump out of the truck and point at the house and shout its over here. We got the same directs as you, and we are not blind. We can find the house with out problems. Do not park your fire truck in the way. The thing takes up slightly more space than your momma's rear end. Let us park our geek bus near the drive way so we can get the patient out of the cold and rain faster. There is no need to respond in bunker gear, unless the patients medical call involves her arm on fire, at which point I will let you play the hero and put her out. Please keep your "hose whore" butt in your truck until I ask you to get out of it. There is no need for you to show up in her bedroom and repeat all the questions that I am asking. She understood me the first time, I do not have a speaking problem. I can lift most patients with the assistance of my partner. Yes she is female, and yes she could out lift you anyday...what makes me say this? Those calls where we pick up Martha at the nursing home. Martha is 450 lbs and I have yet to see your 'water wagon' respond to the nursing home. You are right we carry alot of gear. And yes, if your *** gets out of that fire truck I expect you to assist in moving my gear from the geek bus to the house and back again. Get over it, maybe one day you will become an EMT (finally pass that hard test that just isnt fair, the one you cannot understand why you have taken it 5 times and faild, the one you cannot understand why it isnt open book) and know what its all about. We have hard tests for a reason, to raise the standards in our career feild.

Lastly, I would like to comment on the leaving the real work to the firefighters. Over the course of history, fire fighters have worked themselves out of jobs. Fire prevention and education have made this world a safter place. The only justification you have for your 250,000 dollar truck is to respond to all of our calls too. Do you see police officers doing this? The garbage man has plenty of work to do. And the Milk man still delivers just milk. Funny how all of these career feilds have maintained their line of work and havent honed in on other feilds. Maybe you could do the same.

By no means do I want to upset our fire fighter friends. I would think that most of them would agree with me that people like Whpfd738 give fire fighters all over a bad name. Sorry I had to dip to his level, but people who have their brains in their shorts are unable to understand anything above them. Hope you all have a good day!:D

[smurfe]

Hager says it with so much more "class" than I do ;)

Smurfe:D

[IAMedic]

ROFLMAO!!! Stop...Stop...I can't breathe!! HAHAHA....Great, Hager!!!

[bigJ164019]

:(

[LadyCapn]

"Looks at hager in awe........."


Man that was awesome!!! I do believe sir that you are my new hero!!:D

[ALS142]

Hager,

What a consise, articulate and meaningful way to turn someone's *** into a hat. Well done!

[Weruj1]

LADIES AND GENTLEMAN .................WE HAVE WINNER !!!!!!!! ........FOR THE MOST HUMOROUS post this particular forum has ever seen !!! ROFLMAO !!!!!............as a FF/Medic I have no ill will at you Hager !!!! YOU GO BOY !!!!!!!!! LMAO!!!!!!!! now thats funny ..........I dont care who you are.........an absolute RANT ON !!!!!! WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO ..........WOW I give it 2 thumbs UP ! .............oh do you feel better ? cause that has been pent up for some time I think.............

[hageremtp]

First I would like to thank....oops wrong place.
Glad you all found a little humor in that!:D

[ABMedic]

Out of all the Nominations for the best one-liner in a post the winner is .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ............... "Do not park your fire truck in the way. The thing takes up slightly more space than your momma's rear end." .................................................. .............................submitted by hageremtp

ABMedic