landing zones

[emt34543]

Our fd is writing a new policy on night landing zones for medevacs. We have heard that fire departments do not need to set up a lz for ems. Any information would be helpful.

[RyanEMVFD]

your dept's SOPs are your dept SOPs. we set up LZs when requested any time of the day or night. most cases around here the EMS is too short staffed to have someone set one up so the fire dept or sheriff's office is used for this case.

[ADSNWFLD]

We have worked with the helicopters in our area and while they are quite capable of landing without help. We can help identify hazards that the pilot may miss. Contact the service and they will probably be willing to conduct a safety class for your department.

[emt34543]

I have heard that the service in our area doesn't want/need a lz, not even at night. I find it hard to believe that after years of setting up a lz, what has changed to make them not necessary. I am wondering if anyone else has heard this theroy. I would certainly think that a lz is pretty important especially at night...... thoughts???

[Weruj1]

I am with ADSN .........we set up LZ's and both our services will come out and give the class to show you how.

[kghemtp]

ADSNWFLD has a good point. Pilots know best about where they can land. If your department has ideas about LZ's, perhaps checking out the area is something you all can do. If you can have the flight service come out to your area to map coordinates and check for hazards they also see, you can work very well with them. Hazards they see that you might not would be sand, trees, power lines that are too close for comfort, etc. If you respect their knowledge about that aspect of emergency services, they will likely respect your department. Good luck

[Whpfd738]

Every Department has and sop but ours uses a 50X50 Ft box!!

[twocuts]

50 X 50 is a pretty small area. not that it can't be done, because dependant on the aircraft that is fine. I was a flight medic for a while on both EC135's and twin stars. The standard area was about 100 X 100. For the EC135 it was 60 X 60.

The main thing about the LZ's is to describe where you think a good place to land would be. If you have markers great, but, nothing that isn't firmly grounded. Describe any overhead obstacles like wires, antennas etc. Usually during the day that is easily seen, but, the scariest moments are those that all of a sudden wires appear before you. Talk about messing your shorts!!

[emsbrando]

Get with the local medevac unit and ask them for a landing zone class. I can't believe that any service would say that they do not need any help to land a helicopter. When I was on our EMS services helicopter, we would NOT land unless we had a landing zone coordinator.

This is our eyes on the ground since certain hazards like wires are almost impossible to spot from the air unless you can trace them off of a pole, and you don't see all of them from the air either.

In our EMS service area, we usually have the local fire department set up the landing zone since we are usually too busy with the patient.

Ed Brando:D :cool:

[backdraft663]

The fire department does our landing zones, we setup a 100x100 zone, at night we use landing lights and during the day we use cones. We always have someone directing the crew also.

[ABMedic]

Yes, if your landing a BK-117 you need a 100'x 100'LZ and remember not more than a 5 degree angle.

ABMedic

[hageremtp]

We mostly try to use LZ's already in place. Often times if we can we will transport to the local hospital and use their LZ or the airport. This way the pilot is a little happier about landing. If we cannot do that and need the chopper onscene, 100 X 100 with a red light at each corner is the requirement here!

[N2DFire]

You have been given tons of great information already but I'll recap a few and explain what we do here (and why).

Contact the Medivac service directly and get the story strait from them on if they do or do not want landing zones preset & why. If they do still want them - then see if they offer a class or at least get their requirements & recommendations on an LZ if they do not.

Here we have gone over the entire county with a GPS and pre-marked anywhere from 6 to 10 LZ's in each district. Every unit (Fire & EMS) has a listing of the pre-marked LZ's and the GPS coordinates for their district. The dispatch office has a master copy (ordered by district of course).

99% of the time we will have the dispatcher check the availability of the nearest service based solely on dispatch info. That way if the closest service isn't available or will be delayed, we can either get the next closest on the way or plan on ground transporting (or a combination of the 2).

Once the determination is made for a scene response(and who will be responding), the local FD will be dispatched to set up the LZ because the EMS agency(ies) are most likely too busy with Pt. care to spare the personnel.

At this point all we need to do is tell the dispatcher that we want the chopper for a scene response and a quick run down of Pt Info to relay to them and the dispatcher takes care of the rest. They will pick the closest LZ from the book & confirm with the IC that this is the LZ we plan to use.

While it's true that the chopper COULD probably land in these pre-marked LZ's day or night based solely on the GPS coordinates, we still send FD units to set up marker lights (1 "D" Cell marker strobes) and to verify that there are no new hazards in the LZ.

We once had to "adjust" an LZ due to the fact that the pre-marked site we intended to use was a hay field and the owner had just cut the field the day before. We decided (rather easily) that all that loose material would be a bad thing. As it happens this field sits in the corner of a major crossroads so we simply waited for the chopper to get overhead, stopped all traffic, and landed the chopper in the intersection.

My nutshell take on the subject:
- Get the LZ requirements directly from the service(s) that will be covering your area.
- If at all possible, establish & pre-mark sites with a GPS unit. This will save you tons of time when you really need them.
- Any time you have a chopper that close to the ground and moving that slowly (hovering & landing) - you have the potential for a crash so a Fire suppression unit should be on hand.
- Be it FD or EMS or PD - someone should always be on the ground at an LZ. They can/will be a second set of eyes for the pilot and can see things that the pilot can not - ESP. at night.
- Hand in hand with the item above, if you have predetermined LZ's - someone needs to visually inspect them to make sure no new hazards exist.

[MedEvac]

As a flight crew member this topic has me a little worried. You really need to contact the flight program and ask for clarification on what you heard. As previously stated, many programs are happy to give a LZ Preparation class to their surrounding agencies. A few thoughts on your post:

Some programs may not need a landing zone SET UP if they are landing at a hospital pad or airport but all landing zones need to be SECURED prior to the helicopter landing, especially at night. This means controlling bystanders and vehicles in the area (scene safety is #1 for us too). This is usually done by fire or police since the EMS crews usually have their hand full with patient care. Many programs I am aware of want radio communication with ground units to obtain information on LZ location and LZ hazards/obstructions. Many programs have minimun LZ specs depending on their helicopter requirements and these dimensions often increase at night. 100 ft x 100 ft is common. That doesn't mean they can't land in a smaller space but it makes it easier to maintain a visual on all hazards and identify when they are cleared during landing. Even with spotlights night landing zone visibility is very limited. Talk with your area flight program and write your departmental SOP to reflect that specific program's needs.
Stay safe Brothers.

[Engine101]

A helispot out here can be anything choosen to serve as suitable landing spot for a helo whether it be a Highway or school field or large open space of a parking lot, The LA County Fire Dept and LA City Fire Department also have several pre desiginated landing zones

For LA County the pre designated LZ's begin with the Station No
Exp 44-B 44 The Helispot is in Fire Station 44's area and and is there 2nd pre designated Heli Spot

LA County also has what are known as Heavy Helispots that can support there new Firehawks Copter's 16 and 19

44-B is located in the City of Monrovia so therefore a Monrovia Engine Company would respond to serve as LZ Cordinator,

[stbbrn]

Our fire or rescue division sets up our LZ's no matter the time of day or night as well. Our rescue truck is normally needed at night because of its large scene light.

[SFDchief]

Our local medivac provider has an outreach program as far as what they want in determining LZ's. 60 x 60 during the day. 100 x 100 at night. Area free of any roto wash.

Ground contact a must. No blinding lights. They recomend putting flashlights (we use the light box hand light) under cones aiming up. This will illuminate the cones at the corners of the LZ.

Most important item: No moron in the middle of the LZ "directing" them in.

[ALSfirefighter]

We do LZ's for our area air services unless it is a designated helopad, specifically for that use. Which we have 3 in our in our municipality, 1 at our hosp. and 2 at local corporations.
Additionally, there is nothing wrong with having services whom do not want FD's at LZ's, its their liability. To be honest with you, there is nothing we really do except ensure that there aren't any large pieces of debris that could get sucked into an intake, which even then again, the filters are suppose to protect the bird from that. Any obstructions, pilots can pick those out, ever notice that they don't often just come on in on a hot landing without slowing down and taking a peak?
How many military helocopters have FD's standing by for LZ's? And let me speak from experience, (2 "hard" landings, I call them crashes) military birds are pintos compared to what air transport companies fly. The only upside to having some of us at the LZ, we can keep them out of the scene, which they love to jump in.

[IAMedic]

ALS:

What happened to all of your posts?? I'm catching up and you were in the 1000+ era?? hehe...here's hopes on passing you man...:p :D

[emt34543]

Thanks to all who have posted. I just don't know why our provider would say they don't need a lz.

[hageremtp]

GOtta ask them, I guess....none of us would know why!

[Mongoose772]

My guess to answer the question of WHY, is the pilot's over-confidence. Perhaps, more acurately, the pilot's belief in the ground responders UNDER CONFIDENCE.

Put yourself in this senerio:
You are a seasoned emergency responder having worked literally hundreds of auto accidents over the years. Let's pretend you are responding to a MVA at a busy, 2 lane, commercial districted highway. There are hundreds of uncontrolled driveway access points entering onto the roadway. A driver comming out of one of these has caused a T-bone type MVA resulting the struck vehicle to be rolled percariously on it's side. You are the first arriving unit. As you approach you notice a moderate amount of crash debris in the roadway. You notice that traffic is essentially uncontrolled in either direction, and that the gauker factor is in full effect. The offending vehicles radiator is steaming, and it looks like the entire contents of the radiator are on the ground. Within 300 feet of the scene you see a good-samaratin, who is also a respected Emergency Room physcian already on scene. He is kneeling about 10 feet from the over-turned car next to an apparently ejected passenger. He is waving with both arms at you, apparently directing you to park as close to the victim as possible. It looks like this could be a serious injury.

You make a judgment decision. Instead of pulling the ambulance next to the patient, you park about 50 feet away. You position the ambulance so as to provide protection from oncomming traffic, and use the emergency lights to slow traffic down. As you exit, you deploy 3 traffic cones making the area around which other cars will pass wider.
As your partner grabs the strecher and gear, you radio the other responding units that cribbing will be immediately needed for the over turned car, and that at least one radiator has created a spill.

At first the physician looks irritated that you didn't respond to his waving gestures. BOTH of you are concerned about the victim. He has considerable knowledge regarding the patient's injuries and condition. But YOU knew how to drive the ambulance. ;)

Ok. First, don't poke holes in my analogous story. I just made it up.
Second, I'm just guessing on why the local Air medical service wouldn't want you set up LZs. But, I have taken the Army's Air Crew Coordination course, and have heard pilots chuckle to each other over the aircrafts internal commo about the guys with the lighted wands at least LOOKING impressive.

I dunno.


Dan-
IAFF #772