EMT-B at a Part Time Job

[SSTONER]

Greetings,

I currently work as a dispatcher for a FD here in Tucson Arizona. After about year I decided to get my EMT-B cert. Now that I have the cert I am going to pick up some extra shifts in the field but also plan to work part time at a local resort. A friend of mine is head of security and wants me to work a few nights due to my police background.

My question is this - since my offical capacity would be "security Agent" and they have no EMT guidelines etc - would I be acting under the Good Smaritian Laws for any care I provide?

Or does carrying things such as oral glucose etc perhaps make the resort appear to be providing some sort of higher level of care than a first responder? Would that place any liability on the resort?

The casino's here have EMT's but they are soverign(SP) nations and the rules are different for them.

Stoner

[NJWacker]

Stoner, I would look into your states good samaritan laws. Here in NJ, if you are an EMT and provide care and are not compensated for it, wether a volunteer or off duty, you are considered a good samaritan. This includes all the EMT-B treatments as well. Although i'm not too sure if the resort could be named in a lawsuit or not. I would look into your states laws and see if good samaritan applies for off duty EMTs, since it wouldn't be part of your job description. Also I would check and see if it includes EMT level care or just basic first aid.

[chrnea]

Around here it is simple, if you are off duty and you are not carrying the equipment of an EMT then you are not an EMT. You cant practice if you aren't equiped. Also carrying things like oral glucose would require you to be operating under a medical control. You can't perform any of those functions while off duty. So in other words, If you are not acting in an official capacity as an EMT, then do not equip yourself as such, unless you are willing to accept the consequences of any mistakes you made because it will be your rear hanging out there in the wind with no one else to cover it up.

[WTFD10]

I would also check into having some personal malpractice/liability insurance. I work full-time as an EMT at a steel mill and we are covered under the company's malpractice insurance.

NAEMT's Industrial EMS Division (http://www.naemt.org/divisionsAndCommittees/industrialDivision/) might be able to help answer your questions.

[Emberxx]

I'm not a lawyer, but I would have to agree with Chrnea - if you aren't acting as an EMT, doing things like glucose monitoring wouldn't be something you would be doing.

I would have to think that you would be covered under the Good Samaritan laws - but I also have to agree that liability insurance is a great idea. Usually the first step to long lived happiness is protection! :D

[SSTONER]

Originally posted by WTFD10
I would also check into having some personal malpractice/liability insurance. I work full-time as an EMT at a steel mill and we are covered under the company's malpractice insurance.

NAEMT's Industrial EMS Division (http://www.naemt.org/divisionsAndCommittees/industrialDivision/) might be able to help answer your questions.

Thanks - I appreciate everyones input. In regards to NAEMT, I received that paperwork in my packet from NREMT to join the NAEMT - is there any benefit to being a member?

Stoner

[DrParasite]

Originally posted by NJWacker
Here in NJ, if you are an EMT and provide care and are not compensated for it, wether a volunteer or off duty, you are considered a good samaritan. This includes all the EMT-B treatments as well. this statement is soooo wrong, I don't even know what do say. but it is 100% WRONG.

as to the post, there are two things to consider:

1) as a security agent, will your job description be doing any EMS? if not, then you shouldn't be doing any EMS, no glucose, no O2, nothing. do your job.

2) because the casino is a soveirgn (sp) nation, different rules apply. you might be a state certified EMT, but your no longer in that state. so while you have the knowledge, you aren't certified when on casino property. those casinos have weird rules. as the tribal leadership, or whomever is in charge of the area, what the rules will be.

[SSTONER]

Originally posted by DrParasite
this statement is soooo wrong, I don't even know what do say. but it is 100% WRONG.

as to the post, there are two things to consider:

1) as a security agent, will your job description be doing any EMS? if not, then you shouldn't be doing any EMS, no glucose, no O2, nothing. do your job.

2) because the casino is a soveirgn (sp) nation, different rules apply. you might be a state certified EMT, but your no longer in that state. so while you have the knowledge, you aren't certified when on casino property. those casinos have weird rules. as the tribal leadership, or whomever is in charge of the area, what the rules will be.

I am not 100% sure exactly what my job description would be - however - I can see how if other staff knows you have medical training of some degree they tend to look to you to provide some level of care with whatever is noramlly available to them. This may something as simple as splinting. Your not suggesting I not splint a leg or arm I am guessing - I am not going to use anything that the resort does not provide already.

However, I am hoping that since I am not acting as an EMT and not on duty at my FD, that any care I do provide falls under the Good Samaritan/no duty to act situation.

I am not sure about NJ, but here the EMT's at casino must have a State card - they are not required to have a NREMT card.

Stoner

[NJWacker]

Here in NJ, if you are an EMT and provide care and are not compensated for it, wether a volunteer or off duty, you are considered a good samaritan. This includes all the EMT-B treatments as well. This is what i have been told by some of the EMT instructors, including the head instructor. I was wondering about the off-duty situations myself. Whats your info on treating while off duty in NJ?

[WTFD10]

Originally posted by SSTONER


Thanks - I appreciate everyones input. In regards to NAEMT, I received that paperwork in my packet from NREMT to join the NAEMT - is there any benefit to being a member?

Stoner

Personal liability insurance is one :D

[DrParasite]

Originally posted by NJWacker
This is what i have been told by some of the EMT instructors, including the head instructor. I was wondering about the off-duty situations myself. Whats your info on treating while off duty in NJ? the good Samaritan laws do not protect you, because you are trainined. Because you are a trained professional (even though you are not compensated or are off duty), you are held to a higher standard. that means you can be held accountable for negligence, gross neglegence, and anything else that a paid EMT can be sued for.

The standard might be higher for paid EMTs, but do you really think the courts would let a volunteer EMT (who recieves IDENTICAL training in NJ as a paid EMT) do whatever they wanted, without having to be responsible if they mess up?

The good Samaritan laws protect untrained people who were just trying to help out. once you become a trained EMT, you are held to that standard. however, if you are off duty, then there is no duty to act, so the best way to cover your *** is to not tell the public that you are an EMT, and to not function as one unless it is required by your job description, and your boss is insuring you if something happens.

sorry for the run on sentences. if you want the name and e-mail address of veteran EMT instructor, PM me and i'll give you the info. She could explain it better.

[SSTONER]

Originally posted by DrParasite
the good Samaritan laws do not protect you, because you are trainined. Because you are a trained professional (even though you are not compensated or are off duty), you are held to a higher standard. that means you can be held accountable for negligence, gross neglegence, and anything else that a paid EMT can be sued for.

The standard might be higher for paid EMTs, but do you really think the courts would let a volunteer EMT (who recieves IDENTICAL training in NJ as a paid EMT) do whatever they wanted, without having to be responsible if they mess up?

The good Samaritan laws protect untrained people who were just trying to help out. once you become a trained EMT, you are held to that standard. however, if you are off duty, then there is no duty to act, so the best way to cover your *** is to not tell the public that you are an EMT, and to not function as one unless it is required by your job description, and your boss is insuring you if something happens.

sorry for the run on sentences. if you want the name and e-mail address of veteran EMT instructor, PM me and i'll give you the info. She could explain it better.

This may be true in NJ, however, I have looked over the Arizona Good Samaritan Laws and it would cover an EMT off duty. In fact every EMS professional that I have spoken to (and they all teach Fire/EMS and have over 25 years of experience) have said the same thing -

If you are an EMT and are off duty you ARE covered by Good Samaritan laws in Arizona. In fact they can only remember 2 cases in Arizona where someone tried to sue - and both were not successful.

The volunteer argument is mute I believe - you have a duty to act if you are acting in the capacity of your volunteer department. Just because you offer aid while your with your family at the movies does not mean your on duty if your volunteer - your just a good Samaritan.

Each State may differ....

Stoner

[skyraider]

Interesting discussion. I, too, wondered about off-duty EMT assistance. Oddly enough, the code specificly identifies volunteers of the National Ski Patrol System but not EMS or FDs. Reading the below, I gather that volunteer EMTs are covered under the law both ON and OFF duty. I didn't think it would apply to ON duty, but it appears to. It likewise seems to apply to OFF duty career EMT/FFs. Does anyone have a differing interpretation?

Here's an excerpt: Virginia "Good Samaritan Law" indicates "Persons rendering emergency care, obstetrical services exempt from liability. Any person who.."

"Is an emergency medical care attendant or technician possessing a valid certificate issued by authority of the State Board of Health who in good faith renders emergency care or assistance whether in person or by telephone or other means of communication, without compensation, to any injured or ill person, whether at the scene of an accident, fire or any other place, or while transporting such injured or ill person to, from or between any hospital, medical facility, medical clinic, doctor's office or other similar or related medical facility, shall not be liable for any civil damages for acts or omissions resulting from the rendering of such emergency care, treatment or assistance, including but in no way limited to acts or omissions which involve violations of State Department of Health regulations or any other state regulations in the rendering of such emergency care or assistance."

"Is a volunteer in good standing and certified to render emergency care by the National Ski Patrol System, Inc., who, in good faith and without compensation, renders emergency care or assistance to any injured or ill person, whether at the scene of a ski resort rescue, outdoor emergency rescue..."

The code indicates that "'compensation' shall not be construed to include (i) the salaries of police, fire or other public officials or personnel who render such emergency assistance, (ii) the salaries or wages of employees of a coal producer engaging in emergency medical technician service or first aid service pursuant to the provisions of ..., (iii) complimentary lift tickets, food, lodging or other gifts provided as a gratuity to volunteer members of the National Ski Patrol System, Inc., by any resort, group or agency, or (iv) the salary of any person who, in compliance with section..."

[parafire81]

Good Samaritan Laws do differ from state to state, but generally speaking they are pretty much the same everywhere. If you are an off-duty EMT (i.e. not on a clock, being paid to function as an EMT) you are indemnified by the GSL. However, anyone can sue anyone for anything. What a court will look at is that you acted in a manner pursuant to what would be expected from the average person with EMT training and the equipment available to you at the time of the incident in question.

So, if being an EMT is not part of your job description at this resort and they do not require you to possess an EMT cert, you CAN carry a first-aid kit, render care, and yes, be covered by the Good Samaritan Law. As for carrying oral glucose...it is an OTC medication, you can go to any drugstore and buy it off the shelf. Since it sounds like the resort is not a registered EMS provider by state, it does not have to follow any local protocols on meds. So carry whatever you want.

[SSTONER]

Good Samaritan Laws do differ from state to state, but generally speaking they are pretty much the same everywhere. If you are an off-duty EMT (i.e. not on a clock, being paid to function as an EMT) you are indemnified by the GSL. However, anyone can sue anyone for anything. What a court will look at is that you acted in a manner pursuant to what would be expected from the average person with EMT training and the equipment available to you at the time of the incident in question.

So, if being an EMT is not part of your job description at this resort and they do not require you to possess an EMT cert, you CAN carry a first-aid kit, render care, and yes, be covered by the Good Samaritan Law. As for carrying oral glucose...it is an OTC medication, you can go to any drugstore and buy it off the shelf. Since it sounds like the resort is not a registered EMS provider by state, it does not have to follow any local protocols on meds. So carry whatever you want.

Thanks for your input Parafire81, I think as long as I do not step outside the scope of practice of my training and like you say, only carry items available to me OTC I will be fine.

I will look in to the liability insurance also -

Stoner

[gatewayhoward]

All I know is that I'm strictly not allowed to give ALS care when off duty. I don't know why I think this but I don't think the law would come down hard on you for giving BLS skills.

[SSTONER]

All I know is that I'm strictly not allowed to give ALS care when off duty. I don't know why I think this but I don't think the law would come down hard on you for giving BLS skills.

Greetings,

I have actually decided to work partime as an EMT on the ambulance with the company I work for, however, I am courious as to which law you are reffering to and why or who would come down on me for giving BLS skills at a part time job? ALS is bit different since you are taliking about drugs that are strictly controlled under ALS.

[nikki320]

What i know is that if i am not on duty i do not have a duty to act. Also, if i do stop to provide care i can not perform anything above what a first responder should know (this has been drilled into my brain). Obviously you need to check it out, but if you are only a security officer then i wouldn't carry anything on me except a face mask. Carrying anything else could lead to some sort of liability and i just wouldn't want to be put in that situation, but yes i am almost positive you would be under the good samaritan laws. Seriously if something happens, there are EMTs at the place you work for a reason so by the time they got to where you are at i doubt you would have to worry about giving the patient any meds or splinting even if you wanted to.

[NJWacker]

In my state, paramedics can only provide ALS while on duty working under a hospital ALS program, and they must remain in direct contact with a physician. Even if their is a paramedic who also works on a BLS squad, they can only act in the capacity as an emt-b, which is not the law in every state.

[SSTONER]

In my state, paramedics can only provide ALS while on duty working under a hospital ALS program, and they must remain in direct contact with a physician. Even if their is a paramedic who also works on a BLS squad, they can only act in the capacity as an emt-b, which is not the law in every state.

I am pretty sure it is the same way here - hence EMT-B are the highest level of responders you will find working at any private resort, casino and alike.

The resort I was going to work for currently has no personel trained above giving CPR. I still may moonlight over there as the resorts legal department is writing some guidelines to cover them and me. I will be allowed to carry anything availble to me under the scope of practice as an EMT-B.