Red lights on "silent response" what legality is there?

[Taskforce3guy]

So how many times do we got runs when the caller asks that we respond "silent" or without using visual as well as audible warning systems? Sounds to me that the call isnt that important if the caller is more worried about what the neighbors think. So where does that leave us in a legal stand point? Anyone who has policies in place, or has faced this issue, please tell me all you can! Thanks in advance for any help?

IAFF Local 2498

Taskforce3guy...

[firenresq77]

I work FT as a EMS Dispatcher for the County. We are all certified as EMT-B's or higher and also as EMD's (Emergency medical dispatchers). When we talk to caller, we use a set of cards created by Medical Priority to interrogate the callers to figure out what's going on and what's needed. We slow the first responders down to "normal traffic"/"code 2" responses quite a bit. These are basically not true emergencies. All responses are code 3 lights and sirens, unless we tell them to slow it down.

At my FD, all responses are code 3 lights and sirens unless we have someone medically trained on scene to tell us to slow it down. There are a couple other situations, but my post would be 3 pages long......

That's basically the jist of it

[fireman4949]

We respond in two modes...Lights and siren, or no lights and siren. The information we receive regarding the incident determines which mode we use...NOT the callers/complainants desire to "not draw attention" to the situation.

If the warning lights are on, so is the siren...Always!




Kevin :D

[the1141man]

If the warning lights are on, so is the siren...Always!


Oooh, gotta love those policies. Even at 3AM in a residential neighborhood with 0 traffic visible and no intersections nearby and you still run sirens? Sounds great. I'm betting the public loves that to death.

EMS uses PMD, any Pri 1 or Pri 2 call rates lights, sirens are discretion of EMT driving, and common sense prevails. City streets during the daytime? Absolutely. Residential neighborhood at 4AM? Hell no, except if traffic fails to yield to lights only, or when approaching intersections.
Fire runs code 3 to every call except "public assist"--including med-aid/stubbed toe *rolling eyes*. However, even then, same rules WRT siren usage apply as EMS.

EDIT to add:
So how many times do we got runs when the caller asks that we respond "silent" or without using visual as well as audible warning systems? Sounds to me that the call isnt that important if the caller is more worried about what the neighbors think. So where does that leave us in a legal stand point?

Again, the bane of "policy and procedure"...yep you guessed it: common sense, rears its ugly head.
Is it necessary to run the siren right up to your calling party's doorstep? Maybe as you're entering the neighborhood you can shut it off a couple blocks out...thus not waking the world, and causing a huge gaggle of people to come running to see what the big red trucks are doing on their street at 3AM.
Let's face it...some neighborhoods in my area, you don't dare run sirens, hell, even lights, as you roll up unless you want the entire freaking world crowded up around you "lookie-looing" away.
I'd just as soon slip in quietly, unnoticed, and vanish before anyone even realizes I was there... you don't need to trumpet your arrival with a blast of the airhorn every time, ya know. ;)

[fireman4949]

Oooh, gotta love those policies. Even at 3AM in a residential neighborhood with 0 traffic visible and no intersections nearby and you still run sirens? Sounds great. I'm betting the public loves that to death.

EMS uses PMD, any Pri 1 or Pri 2 call rates lights, sirens are discretion of EMT driving, and common sense prevails. City streets during the daytime? Absolutely. Residential neighborhood at 4AM? Hell no, except if traffic fails to yield to lights only, or when approaching intersections.
Fire runs code 3 to every call except "public assist"--including med-aid/stubbed toe *rolling eyes*. However, even then, same rules WRT siren usage apply as EMS.

EDIT to add:


Again, the bane of "policy and procedure"...yep you guessed it: common sense, rears its ugly head.
Is it necessary to run the siren right up to your calling party's doorstep? Maybe as you're entering the neighborhood you can shut it off a couple blocks out...thus not waking the world, and causing a huge gaggle of people to come running to see what the big red trucks are doing on their street at 3AM.
Let's face it...some neighborhoods in my area, you don't dare run sirens, hell, even lights, as you roll up unless you want the entire freaking world crowded up around you "lookie-looing" away.
I'd just as soon slip in quietly, unnoticed, and vanish before anyone even realizes I was there... you don't need to trumpet your arrival with a blast of the airhorn every time, ya know. ;)

I never said we do not "downgrade" given specific conditions or circumstances, only that we don't use lights by themselves while responding. Besides, a light tap, or two on the Q can cover the law. ;)

[the1141man]

I never said we do not "downgrade" given specific conditions or circumstances, only that we don't use lights by themselves while responding.

Right. That's exactly what I was addressing. Not downgrading per updated info, but rather using good judgment about siren usage when "rolling code" to calls, especially at 3AM in residential sections.
Unless the law or department policy states otherwise, there's absolutely nothing wrong with "shutting down" when you're in the area of the call, especially if the RP requests a quiet approach.

Then again, my first training & exposure to public safety was LE--cops do whatever the hell they want WRT running code, using sirens, etc., as you no doubt well know. ;)

[mcaldwell]

That is going to depend on your state/province and it's laws.

Up here in BC the law is very clear. Lights AND Siren, or nothing at all. I have seen crews roll up to a scene with lights only, but most will eventually get thier hand slapped by a supervisor for doing it.

IMHO, if your area allows modfied responses, there should be one clear element to your SOG. If running without a siren, you should run with traffic. If you did get into an accident after violating a traffic law while running lights only, a lawyer would tear you and your service a new one in short order.

[RyanEMVFD]

I like being told that the caller wants a silent entry. Gives me a chance to whisper on the radio that we are on scene.

[BPFire1618]

I agree, 2AM in the morning when no cars are around (assuming you live in a suburban/rural area) doesn't really need a siren going the entire way... barring intersections of course...

[GFD940]

CORTLAND — The Ohio State Highway Patrol is investigating circumstances of a 16-year-old girl killed Tuesday night when struck by a city police car.

The pedestrian, Cassandra Thompson of state Route 193, was killed as she was walking across state Route 5.

The patrol said she walked in front of a cruiser driven by patrol officer Jason Smith, a 13-year veteran of the city police department.

Smith of Cortland had not activated the cruiser's lights or siren while responding to a report of a large number of young people involved in a fight shortly before 11:30 p.m., the patrol in Warren said.

The patrol said Smith was driving the cruiser northbound on Route 5 in excess of the 35 mph speed limit when the vehicle struck the girl.

She had attempted to cross the road just north of Fowler Street at the Circle K convenience store.

Cassandra was taken to St. Joseph Health Center, where she was later pronounced dead.

Cortland Police Chief Gary Mink responded to the call and requested that the state patrol handle the investigation, which continues.

The city has a curfew requiring those age 17 and under to be off the streets between 10:30 p.m. and 5:30 a.m. ****************************

Just because there isn't much traffic doesn't remove liability. Use your heads and drive safely!

[Weruj1]

we also tend to "temper" our response with the time of day (night time). We do not honor what the person wants for a response but will do an "early shutdown" from a block or 2 away.

[the1141man]

Smith of Cortland had not activated the cruiser's lights or siren while responding to a report of a large number of young people involved in a fight shortly before 11:30 p.m., the patrol in Warren said.

Just a quick revisit:
cops do whatever the hell they want WRT running code, using sirens, etc., as you no doubt well know.

Ironically, the original call (several subjects "physical" with unknown weapons) would probably justify a code-3 response by most PD/SD standards, until at least one unit got on-scene and gave a report.

Some years ago, we had a deputy KIA when responding as a backup unit on a regular traffic stop...he was goin 80+ on a narrow country road and missed a sharp turn. He rolled the cruiser several times and was ejected, DRT. The explorer that was riding with him was one step above hamburger helper, but managed to get a radio call in on his HT to County with their location. The explorer made a near-full recovery after three or four surgeries.
The moral of the story is that the traffic stop ended uneventfully--the plates came back clean, and there were no wants/warrants on any of the subjects in the vehicle. A deputy lost his life and nearly killed someone else because he stepped beyond the safe limits of driving, especially "code 2", for a routine back-up assignment.

[fireturtle]

Well in my area its the lights and siren or nothing. I think most of the EMS and most of the FD will run nothing on those 2AM calls due to no traffic on the road. Now the LEO is a different story sometimes. :p

[MarcusKspn]

I used to run pretty much all calls "Hot".

We had Priority 1 and Priority 2 (Both L&S, but different response times).
Priority 3 is the Nursing home transfer, no lights and no siren.

The defenition of running hot would depend on the circumstances. If we were paged to a call that was a 3 minute drive away there is not much to be gained by running hot. We would run silent to the neighborhood and then turn on the "we care" lights as we get close. A 5 second gain in response time did not warrant risking my life and the life of the idiots who panic when they see lights and sirens. If it was 3 am in the morning we would run lights and sirens down the major 4 lane roads (big metro area) and as soon as we pull in any residential neighborhood (2 lane roads we would go to lights only, and use the manual function to get peoples attention).

[ksfireman82]

Around here the law is lights = sirens so that is our choice...all or nothing. We run all calls based on the information given, not by the wishes of the caller. If they call in a priority call but say they want silent...too bad for them, they are not a doctor or medic or any competent authority to downgrade our response. I will shut the siren down as soon as I am close enough to see the location of the emergency however. My fulltime job is on an army base, so what we do doesn't much matter since we get about 30 MP's running full out lights and sirens and doing about 100mph no matter what the call...my one siren not being on won't help anyone get any sleep.

[the1141man]

I like being told that the caller wants a silent entry. Gives me a chance to whisper on the radio that we are on scene.

I have to try this sometime. ;) :D

[Dave1983]

Oh, I always LOVE that request. I always make sure I wind the "Q" up just as were pulling up in front of the house. :D



Seriously, a callers request for silent approach means nothing. Our mode of response is governed by EMD cards. And no, we dont use sirens at 0 dark 30 hrs unless we are approaching a red traffic signal.

[cowbucks06]

hen I was working for a resort island FD, we were told that night responses did not require the use of sirens because of little or absent traffic on the streets. It was acceptable to use sirens when coming to an intersection or approaching a vehicle to pass. This was in response to complaints from residents that the fire trucks were making too mch noise in small crowded neighborhoods. I agreed and disagreed with this idea, but that was how they wanted it done and I was being paid to do it that way. We even do it sometimes when I run as a volunteer in Ohio, we leave the sirens off until we encounter traffic or come through the downtown area.

If we get a run where the caller requests a silent response, we will approach in full warning until we get about a block away, then we will shut down the lights and sirens and approach with traffic.

[doughesson]

In Kentucky,there isn't Code 1,2,or 3.You either run lights AND siren or you run neither.That's what the book says to do.
Real life,my old volunteer department would run lights if it was late and traffic was light til we got on the interstate or we saw traffic.We'd lay off the horn unless it was needed.

[firemanjb]

So how many times do we got runs when the caller asks that we respond "silent" or without using visual as well as audible warning systems? Sounds to me that the call isnt that important if the caller is more worried about what the neighbors think. So where does that leave us in a legal stand point? Anyone who has policies in place, or has faced this issue, please tell me all you can! Thanks in advance for any help?

IAFF Local 2498

Taskforce3guy...

First, the urgency of response is determined by the RESPONDER and the dispatcher, not the caller. Frankly, if someone called 911 at 0200 because they have felt sick for the past 2 days, but asked for silent, I would specifically respond lights and siren the whole way. You want to wake me up at 0200 for a BS run that you could drive yourself to the ER for? Fine, but don't expect me to not wake up your neighbors and family just because you don't want me to....

Second, depending on your state laws, you may be required to run lights AND siren, or nothing. That's how it is in Kentucky, unless you are transporting a patient and believe the siren would be detrimental to the patient's health.

Third, all of us balance the requirements of the law with common sense...we don't race down side streets at 0200 with sirens blaring....unless it's #1 above.

[4017ucfd]

Tennessee state law says we use all or none

[djgilbert32]

If the lights are on the siren is too, even at 3 a.m. in a residential area, all it takes is one car from a side street or a drive to cause a serious problem. Most people including myself have no problem with staying asleep when a rescue squad or fire engine goes past.